See you here at 7.30pm AU-EST for an 'un-debate'.

We're going to talk about the future of music while same debate rages on SBS Insight Show http://news.sbs.com.au/insight/

great initiative, phil - they should link to this screen on the show

Thanks Rand - hope to see you there.

SBS Insight show about to begin.

INSIGHT: MiTunes
Tuesday June 3
7.30pm

On tonight’s Insight, Jenny Brockie mediates a fascinating debate about music downloading and how the music industry will survive the digital age.

With so much music free online, thousands of Australians are downloading their favourite tracks without handing over a cent. Some call it stealing, others call it file sharing. Whatever your moral stance, the music industry has changed forever. So how are songwriters and artists making a living?

Insight tackles the issue head on , bringing together musicians, songwriters and the teenagers who download their music without paying. The Audreys, Tim Levinson from the Herd, Mahalia Barnes and Jenny Morris come face to face with fans and explain the impact of downloading on their careers.

Two teenagers admit to having over 2,000 illegally downloaded songs in their computer library. To which hip hop artist Phrase replies,

“One day I would like to buy a house and have a wife and have a kid but that’s not possible if I keep just giving to you guys all the time. I can’t just keep giving you music” .

Mikey Green, from The Audreys adds;

“I guess they’re not making that connection with what they’ve done which is stealing because it’s just a click of a mouse button. When we were younger if we wanted to steal a record we would have to walk into a shop with a big trench coat, put the wax under your jacket and run very fast.”

But most artists are aware the Internet is a fantastic promotional tool and remain in two minds about the issue. Mahalia Barnes adds,

” It really works to the advantage of an artist as everyone said, by spreading your music and getting it out there.”

Stephen Peach, head of ARIA, goes head to head with the Internet Industry Association’s Peter Coroneos over whether or not Internet services should play a role in solving the piracy issue. Says Peach,

“There are probably a billion songs a year just in Australia that are illegally downloaded. People are stealing from artists and song writers as well as labels and retailers.”

Scot Morris, from APRA, joins the debate from Europe where developments have seen ISPs and the music industry come together.

And Kevin Bermeister, formerly with the infamous pirate network Kazaa, reveals his new plan aimed at redirecting Internet users from illegal to legal music sites.

No one who loves music can afford to miss this debate.

Anyone here?

Started off with teens that download 90% of their music for free.

This guy used Limewire! Wow!

Yep. Though it's fairly quiet.

Sure is Josh

All the cliche's so far. I hope the debate opens up.

you watching?

Definitely. I hope they don't keep targeting teens

Like only our wayward youths do it because they don't know better

Good to hear that ARIA isn't recording names and addresses from self-confessed thieves!!

I guess we are going to hear the word 'stealing' alot tonight.

Yeah, I imagine I'll be quite annoyed by the end of the show

Yeh Time to fess up rantalot

Go Peachy!

What's the download/buy ratio of everyone here?

lime - what ??!

so who's looking after the music industry?

Let's hope they get to a forward thinking poin instead of complaining about something that's already bolted.

Mine would be about 60/40, I make an effort to buy the CDs of the music I like.

I don't think they'll have any answers personally

Shoplifting and downloading music is different.

Yeah, I'm waiting for someone to make that distinction

When I was a teen I 'stole' tens of thousands of songs by taping them of my friends onto casettes.

Exactly. And people taped songs off the radio

how long did it take to 'tape' 10,000's of songs??

downloading music is a function; not respecting artists efforts is something different

hey all

My entire teens and university life.

Hey @ArmyofDolls

What do you think about the 'music tax', where ISPs proposed to charge $5/month basically to make all your downloading legal?

hey pete

What do you mean @nickg?

Evening

I haven't heard a good solution for the music industry yet, I think most people are too polarised

I think a 'music tax' is quite a good idea... its a tricky one but theres something in it.

what I mean is that downloading, copying is a function utility and the reason why it's done so often is coz its easy!  just coz its easy does not mean it should be free

Interesting to hear the comment on it being difficult having artists and 'peoplethat download the music' in the same room.... isn't that 'fans' and artists?

Yeah, it's the closest thing to a solution, I think. However when Arrington puts it as "a tax to stop the RIAA prosecuting you" it makes you think it really is like paying the heavies

@nickg I agree.

radiohead proved this in my view with their "create your own price" for our album recently

Hmm, I'm not sure this guy's point of view is reasonable. All artists are already wealthy??

people actually are willing to pay - its a different mindset

Artists need to be paid. How and under what circumstances? And how can the wb make that incredibly powerful?

For sure, I love buying CDs

@joshsharp yeh that is silly.

@philmorle - yes - artists and fans in the same room - what a 'strange' construct!

maybe its time to move beyond CDs being just music and some videos on them to more

yeah, i kind of agree - you need to get 'more' when you buy the physical product.

not sure what "more" is but maybe its CD/DVD 2.0

hmm, do most people really have this mindset that artists are all wealthy?? god i must be getting old, i don't connect with these kids

Yeah lady, but DRM = FAIL

Peachy-san!!

(old peakhour expression! - for @nickg)

I think what the music industry lacks is trust and respect for its customers.

@rantalot - lol

go Peachy!

Hence DRM, RIAA crackdowns

DRM totally=FAIL

hey guys..

evening chaps

yay for ginger lady

who is this redhead???

i love the jargon

Ad break time.

Here's what I keep saying... If an alien came down to earth wanting to start a 'music industry' and found the internet. S/he would be blown away by the opportunities....  easy to spread media, easy to pay, easy to tell everyone how awesome something is 'Listen to this' The only problem today is the gap between what was the record industry and what it will be.

so, while where waiting

China v Qatar draw 0-0 which means the Socceroos have a clear lead at the top of the table!

@PhilMorle exactly.

There is compulsory licensing (on devices or ISPs?), there is merchandising, there is live performances.

Though changing people's perceptions about things they're used to getting for free is hard.

There are more opportunities than ever to be 'discovered'

2000 free downloads does not equal 2000 lost sales opportunities! (or, in @philmorle's case, 10000 taped songs does not equal 10000 lost sales) - so, what is the formula that makes sense - free 'wom' sampling of songs, but leading to some commercial benefit subsequent to that (live concerts, limited edition graphics with CD's, etc, etc

And I think it's a bit tough on artists to not make any money except for gigs etc

People forget you once needed to be a superstar or nothing at all to get a leg up in music

I hear ya Phil... Music industry held back way too long.. they should have shifted focus from CDs ages ago.. iTunes is huge, but it would have been a lot bigger now if the industry had embraced the technology years ago

@rantalot: yeh - the stealing meme is bad for everyone.

simple question - are singers and bands just brands that people and communities connect with in their own way?

Maybe we need to push the karma aspect more - if you like something, buy it. Good for the artist, good for your karma

'piracy' is a cost of business... its also known as'Listen to this... its so cool'

the content is one aspect

@nickg definitely

Ah Paul.

Hi @alanjones.... hey, is it true you own/ed a record label?

example - when I think of KISS i feel something beyond the music.... its a way of attitude, lifestyle, etc....

gotta love paul!

everyone has always copied... casettes, CDs, DVDs, and they always will.. problem ATM is just that getting music online is super-easy and the legit tech hasn't quite caught up yet... there's still a way to go to make it easier, ditch DRM and make cross-platform sharing easier and create more value-ads for the ppl who pay

Definitely, I think it would be interesting to see how the industry would've evolved had the record industry decided to be open rather than go on the offensive.

on a related matter... i'm amazed that i'm watching live tv... such a rarity since we have the IQ... tangler could signal the re-birth of live tv for me!

Though people like free stuff regardless.

The ISP part in all this is an interesting one... Music has driven a large amount of the broadband industry. Now video.

@lol Michelle

so, my belief is that the content (music) is not where the value is going forward.  It's all about the "experience"!  connecting with a band's brand and persona and generating revenues around is the model

Go Kate! Attack the propaganda

Agree @nickg - that's huge

Go Pete!

Ha, old school NIN shirt. Hard core.

This is a big issue

Definitely, interaction with the band/brand is something that could be further leveraged

Do agree that the business models haven't yet adapted and need to.

Gene Simmons from KISS is a legend at this

Go Peachy!

3 strikes is CRAAAAZY!

Mental

blah.. forget trying to block ppl already!

That's why ISPs won't deal with them.

stop attacking fans

Find out how to build a business insted criminalising your customers.

Grrr

ISPs for some CRAZY reason don't want to criminalise their own customers.

Funny that.

Grrr

or stop their bandwidth usage!

hehe.. or at least not lose their business

Phil, you know someone who's in the audience?

Yeh

"she got to be loved....."

Where is Kevin?

I was going to be on it myself at one stage.

go the grassroots!

ooh.

I've seen him

looks like Rebekah from MySpace is their as well

This discussion frustrates me...itunes is crap, this we know...

Dude doesn't like DRM. Also a funny thing.

those French!

DRM is over.

I think there is space for soft DRM, not restrictive DRM.

DRM should be permission based. Not oppressive.

APRA etc could be driving new business models... needs aggressive collaboration.

Yeh!

agree Peter!

New business models.... let's go!

go the new biz models!  BRING IT ON!

Go Peter!

who was the ISP guy again?

good to hear Stephen

"You would want the ISPs to do your enforcement for you." Well said Peter.

What did he say that was good @nickg?

Stephen is a puppet.

Go Kate.

not enforcing punitive actions

i love redheads!!! 

ISP guy is Peter Coroneos. I was supposed to be on a panel with him the day Kazaa got raided.

yep.. feel like I'm watching thankyou for not smoking

He shoudl start listening or he will kill the people he is there to support.

His name is Michael Fee - pay the fee Michael!

Ooh.. "the future"

ahh.. from IIA

This will be interesting.

@rantalot sez there are problems with this forum.... anyone else having problems?

has anyone ever thought about how
The Beatles, Rolling Stones, etc continue to make so much money actually more today with the same songs they use to sing 50 years ago?

i'm ok

when everyone has access to everything the "collections" or playlist (think empowered) will become more interesting than the music itself almost (dare I say it?!)

Nah, I'm good. (obviously, I keep blabbing)

Keep blabbing @joshsharp

Is Alan still around? I didn't know he owned a record label.

the record labels are quite simply "launch partners" for bands

Very true @ArmyofDolls - the playlist is a way of sorting the wheat from the chaff... valuable these days.

I wonder how it would change if artists did give away their rights to the labels

didn't*

This is an open audience... pro artist if anything... and seem totally against 3 strikes....

Stealing.... grrrr....

they (MySpace) provide marketing and community support - do we agree?

A marketing platform, certainly

Here's Kevin

Aha

Unify the parties... yeh

"facilitate positions"  huh

Kev?

yay @phil, you try tackle 10,000 + track and you will need human intervention (ie. people that like similar music to you). We provide the key or legend to these monster libraries

i think he is fighting a lost cause

consumer behaviour has moved beyond this argument now in my view

Redirecting... good idea or bad?

Hmm if a program starts trying to gently herd users towards paying, they will just switch clients.

too hard to implement in my view

Not that hard @nickg

He finally admits "it's very hard to compete with free"

kids look unconvinced

you would need to have 100% of participants in the ecosystem to make this work

move beyond monetising the content!

"Punishment not a good modifier of human behavior"

great quote from ISP guy

ah, she brought up the ISP subscription

Let 15-25 year olds have as much as possible for free. Let them love music.

For 25+ give them the pop corn SMS juke box model. the value of one song once is like 1c. Let them have it for 5c and you  get billion dollars of sales.

I don't belive in subscription.

Agree @nickg...

That's a great idea.

Ars technica did the maths and figured out $10 a month would double labels' revenue

Totally

subscription doesn't do enough to move the best to the top.

I feel bad for artists forced to tour, though.

Some great ideas in here for anyone that's interested: http://www.music20book.com/

what if you could take that one step further and have bronze, silver, gold and platinum subscription packs with more and more "value" for more $ spent

The book can be downloaded for free

no

Artists should tour. They get bugger all from labels from album sales. They have to tour.

More independent labels with global internet rights.

Finally, Radiohead model.

They don't HAVE to tour @Mick... but it is one way they can make more money. There are others too.

I agree. But they have to tour if they have a label deal.

Dont' have to, but better income.

Do they? Labels don't get any money... although I think they are starting to now.

lol @ how many people i recognise tongiht...

radiohead works if you big/fat/famous...otherwise sheesh... wobbly limb to wander onto!

Yeah, true. They were banking on masses of fans

-18 need "Pay as You Go" same as phones...no biggy

Labels get their money for controlling marketing and the distribution network. And that is still 95% of market.

@mick I agree

hey all - been watching, but i dropped out of the forum and then couldn't get back in - had to 're-boot' IE!!

Fat pants are expensive, apparently.

Small bands need a more ebay model where they can charge a bit until they get notice.

ouch behind 8Ball...

That's true about singles, but labels starting pushing expensive albums with 1 good song and 10 crap ones.

Like that 'something' st site... can't think of the name. Price goes up as popularity grows

@joshsharp... its PHAT noob

this whole industry is based on consumerism!

Haha, I figured. It's more fun to feign ignorance. "Those crazy kids and their fat pants"

it just hit me!

The old industry model is out of date and you can't prop it up.

We are in the transition - another 20 years because teh music industry are holding on and consumers change slowly.

record labels influence influence influence consumers to what they should hear vs what they want to hear

OK - that has to be the last time I hear that kind of argument. That was the same argument from 2003

Amie St, that's the one I was thinking of.

Price changes according to popularity

@Nickg - they 'used to' do it by paying the radio stations..........

Audries are cool!

Still not really a fix though.

they don't do that anymore Mick???

so, are the audrie's being paid for tonight's performance - I'm enjoying it for free (and not too many ads, either!)

@nickg no Nick, they are all about music and the artists. They care..........