This will be the online discussion topic for December, check back in the coming week for more details.

Hi everyone, just a reminder that we will start our chat today, at 1PM GMT.

please DM me if you have problems accessing the chat! thank you!

we will start in 10 min, so if you are around, grab a coffee:)

Ok I'm here

ah,hi Dawid, how are you?

I'm fine, thank you. So this event is delayed or you have had a disussion before I joined?

No, we planned it for 1PM GMT...

forgot there is this time difference;) Anyway, wanted to tell you I have a Christmas dinner from my work so I won't be able to stay long. Is there an iPhone app fro Tangler?

It is fine, I am glad you can make it for a second!:)

Hi, all. How are you?

I do not think there is an iPhone app - let me check..

Hi Paulus!:)

Hi, mind if I join?

* makes a respectful bow towards Sylwia Presley *

I am fine, in a Christmas mood already, and I think Dawid is too;)

*bows back;)*

Hi everyone - finally made it through the signup process

Hi Marta, nice to see you here! Can you guys quickly introduce yourself for the benefit of newcomers, plz? Thank you!

Hi Yvonne:)! Nice to see you here:)

Hi Yvonne, Marta!

So do you all have your coffees?

What are you working on nowadays?

*thinks this chat is very slow today*

Well, I'm a strategy consultant in K2 Internet (we're an interactive agency operating since 97, I think the biggest in Poland) and I'm a social media geek as Dawid

Hi, Marta is a friend of mine, she is working at K2, a very well known interactive agency in Poland

^ thank you

Marta, what is your Twitter ID?

Marta is a Social Media Geek. She also has another persona, she is known as a "Socialist" (do not mix it up with communism) on Facebook, Twitter and Blip. She is posting a lot of content on news in Social Media industry.

Yvonne, how are you today?

Nice to see you again, Paulus.

Great Im workig in product Launch Management and so I touch on using social media

Hello Yvonne

Dawid and Marta are based in Poland, Paulus in Amsterdam...you Yvonne?

@Dawid Happy to see you, too.

Im in London

I have few topics I would like to mention today and really do not know where to start, there is so much happening in Europe this month...

Sylwia, I'm both on Facebook and Twitter as Socialistka - trying to separate my private profiles from business ones but I use my Twitter account only for promoting the fan page (which of course I wouldn't recommend to our clients

Hi Yvonne, hi Paulus

Maybe just a quick update on events - Dawid, Paulus - anything on your side recently?

One of the things I am working on is a Twitter event for employees of one of our largest commercial banks. The idea is to get 500 people up to speed in Twitter, primarily to give them a good taste of social media. I did the kick-off last Monday, which went great

Marta - @socialistka  - 'Social media spammer'?;)

I perhaps should have added why I am here - my business partner lives in France

500 people, wow...sounds like a challenge! do they know Twitter?

Yvonne - thank you! so you are interested in French social media? did you attend Le Web by any chance?

Only two of them I wrote a starters manual for the others.

No to Le Web unfortunately

@Sylwia - well yeah, I wouldn't call myself a blogger so it's the closest I guess

What was the aim of getting the bank employees onto twitter?

@ Paulus And they say (Charelne Li from Altimeter Group) that banking industry is so not into Social Media;) But I see banks very active on microbloggin platforms in Poland. There was even a big event for this industry related to Social Media activity.

do you have url, Dawid?

@Marta - valid point;)

url to what? banks on blip or that old event?

Recently one of our financial clients wanted to know all about social media and Facebook so I did a quick research - it seems that financial institutions are only discovering social media but there are a few fine cases

@Yvonne It's part of a program to get employees focused on their actual clients and the outside world. Other activities are e.g. client interviews. I thing it's a cool thing, not so marketing-oriented.

Mostly banks both in the US and here

so who is doing it right in Poland? (if you can say;))

@Paulus Its moving a lot faster in Europe than the UK

there is a big controversy, but I think that mBank despite the big issue they had and mistakes they made, they still can be a positive example

@Paulus - we had an interesting presentation by Benjamin Ellis (http://benjaminellis.org/) yesterday at media Camp London 3 (http://mcl3.eventbrite.com/) about management of company in social media era - I think some of it is relevant to your project - bits on how employees represent companies now...Benjamin promised to put it up on his blog...

@Yvonne UK is not a part of Europe?

@Yvonne Well, this project is somewhat exceptional, being partly a grass-roots initiative.

finding the platform v slow sorry

@sylwia Would like to read that. Will keep an eye on his blog. Thx.

@Paulus here it is actually: http://www.slideshare.net/benjaminellis/advanced-cat-herding-mismanaging-creativity

I would agree with Dawid, mBank is the closest to success

@sylwia Great, thx.

and I think BZWBK has potential,but currently they are focusing on their own platform https://bankpomyslow.bzwbk.pl/ (something like Dell's IdeaStorm), I haven't seen them on Facebook or any microblogging sites

@Paulus - will you do a case study of it - is it something we could all learn from?

but still, the "ideas bank" is a great initiative

Malgosia Kowalska used to work (changed job 1 month ago) for mBank and she was doing a great job on Blip.pl. Tried to make a connection with Blip community and with mBank community.

@Dawid good idea! I have a feeling Blip.pl (Polish microblogging engine) is still more popular than Twitter, am I right?

@Marta you posted our great example of BZWBank's platform which is similair what Starbucks does with their Starbucks Idea, or Dell IdeaStorm.

@sylwia Yes, I will. I am an editor of the popular Dutch marketing blog http://www.marketingfacts.nl/ and will probably publish it there. Happy to share a translation with you guys at the time.

(talking of Twitter and Le Web - let me sneak in a little light video some of you might have seen  http://bit.ly/7Mw48n )

@Paulus - awesome! @Dawid - is this something you would use for your 'papers'? Is that idea kicking off?

@Sylwia Blip is still popular, but I stay on Twitter. Polish politicians and journalists prefer Twitter as well (as least from my perspective). The SocialMediaPapers idea is still in progress. Havent finished yet the developoment process and have to update first 20 papers, than I can launch;)

@Paulus - social media club kicking off in Amsterdam? http://www.marketingfacts.nl/berichten/20091219_social_media_club_amsterdam_eerste_meeting/ are you involved in this too? Would love to attend once...

@Dawid I strongly suggest 'What Matters Now' it's sooo good!:) (http://networkedblogs.com/p20998367)

@ Dawid - I think that Twitter may now be more popular than Blip in Poland,as far as traffic is concerned (RU), I don't know how many registered users from Poland there are on both sites

@sylwia Sure, I'm a member. This was the first meeting of the new - Amsterdam - branch. Social Media Club is an international formula.

@Paulus looks like a great blog.

@Sylwia thanks, I have it downloaded on my computer. Have quickly looked at it. Will get into this during Christmas;)

@Sylwia I also owe you a review of Trust Agents on my blog!

@Paulus, yes, hence why I am happy to see it popping out more and more. Did any one here get involved in social innovation camp? I am looking into trying to organize one, just at the stage of creative thinking really...

There is a site that aggregates and integrates Polish Twitter users: http://twitt.pl have you got something similar in your countries?

@Dawid - you do indeed - I would like to know what you think of the book

@Sylwia - I've attended Real Time Camp in November (I think)

@Sylwia I think Brogan's book is great but wait for my extended review. I'm about to write it down...

@Marta - is it the same?:/ I am starting to get confused in all the names of formats of events slowly:)

@Dawid - will wait:)

@marta tell us about that Real Time Camp you attended. You think guys this "term" of RTW will become more popular than "Social Media"?

This might interest you guys: http://twirus.com/ It shows - betweesn other things - trending topics per language - including Polish, of course.

http://twitmaps.com/ pretty fresh aggregation of #uksnow;)

twirus is useful for me thanks

@Paulus thank you! I came across it once and forgot about it, good to have it back:)

Actually, it's a project by one of my friends, @klup

@Marta - yes, please tell us more about the format...

@Dawid - I think it may, especially with the 'twitterification' of Facebook's feed, but I prefer the social media term because it's broader and not all social media are real time - what about forums or blogs

@Paulus - great idea, I really like when people develop tools useful for many communities!

Ok guys, I have just heard from my boss that we are going out to the Christmas dinner with the whole agency. So I will be offline soon. @Marta I don't believe in RTW because it only descibes the SPEED not the RELATIONS. Social Media are fast and this is part of the definition.

@Dawid great point

@Dawid thank you for being here, enjoy the lunch!:)

I agree, I think social media is pretty good term as it is;)

bye Dawid!

As far as the event is concerned (RTC) - that was only the first meeting and to tell the truth I didn't like it that much

bye!

how did it work?

bye Dawid

btw there are some presentations available - unfortunately only in Polish- here: http://realtimecamp.pl/

Bye guys will try to stay in touch on my mobile (if it works). Will read your discussion after anyway.

It was a mini-conference - some presentations and a discussion panel at the end

* minority opinion alert * People, don't waste your time discussing definitions like 'social media', 'RTW', 'Web 2.0'. It's the internet. Has been since 1993. The rest is bullsh*t.

covering business uses of Facebook, Twitters and out local microblogs Blip, Sledzik - I didn't like it because it was pretty general, pretty basic and well, I think that a group of the same people  is attending all similar events with the same presentations

*Paulus good point*

@Paulus - haha, very good point, apologies:)

I think the first time I actually heard the term was when I found out about the conference

so it's focussed on presentations and small discussions afterwards? like barcamp or more formal?

a bit less formal I think. The next meeting will be held in February I think and will cover only Facebook but I don't know if I'm attending yet

because of the reasons mentioned above

but hey, maybe I will have some of our own cases to present then we've recently launched our first site using Facebook Connect - in a limited way but still. I think it's not that easy for a big agency to start doing new stuff like this

what is the url?

I also think there are very few real experts out there IMHO

@Yvonne not sure there are any

I need to look into social media innovation camps - I think they are more focussed on workshops on actual solutions, seems to be like a good idea for projects that need practical results...

@marta some stand out more than others perhaps

@Yvonne - it's hard to define an expert, isn't?

@ Sylwia - things seems to me that it is so fragmented

so one might be an expert in a very niche area only

and for people like me who are looking for experts to help them with social media in launches it becomes a hard search

@Yvonne - I do agree with that, but I also think you will find people more and less experienced in current understanding of social media (I for instance consider myself still a beginner;)) For instance yesterday, at Media Camp London 3 I did hear a lecture where I could pick up definitions which lacked coherence - to me, who is not a big specialist. I just think we need to be humble and understand we all start somewhere - and help each other

@Yvonne - I see your point, and I do think you are right! It's difficult to work out the actual expertise here. @Paulus what do you think?

@Sylwia if you're a beginner then I am far behind

@Marta? is that the case in Poland?

@Yvonne, that's true but what I meant was that one can be a social media expert in his own company but there are a lot of people out there who know much much more

@marta ok now I understand

@Sylvia, I think there are may expert wannabes but I don't know if there are any real experts

I have my own measurement (but do forget what I said about myself a second ago, as I REALLY do not consider myself any kind of an expert - I think those who really understand the spirit and mechanisms of current times in social media do not walk around waving their hands and shouting - 'I am the best guy you can get!'

does anyone even know what the questions would be to be able to define skills in those that claim expertise?

@sylwia Don't be too modest! Most people who call themselves 'social media experts' will have a basic or even good understanding of the field. But what you are looking for is those people who bring extra, rare expertise and skills that make social media work. Can be presentation or teaching skills, organisational knowledge etc.

@ Sylvia for me being an "expert" in my own company (= the person who is consulted, has the most knowledge and so on) is enough, thank you - the responsibility still is huge

It's not about the tools, it's about what you want to achieve.

@ Paulus well said

@marta good point

@Paulus - yes, I agree - it is about applying all those new theories to actually make the project work

@marta In your own organisation, you wil be trusted. That's a good thing and probably more than any 'expert' could claim.

@Paulus - but it is tricky - how do you trust someone who is not your employee but seems to be good for the job?

@sylwia tough one * thinking *

I can only guess - studying person's reputation (on-line and off-line), looking at project they have delivered..

and looking at suggested solutions - I mean social media is not magic - you do get to see if people actually propose logical, (as you said @Paulus) meaningful solutions, no?

Yesterday Benjamin was talking about smth similar - trusting your employees with finding solutions and achieving goals you brief them to do - as you cannot tell them HOW to do it - it all came down to accountability I think

It also might help looking for someone who knows your business, at least a little bit. That will exclude many marketeers-turned-social-media-experts, I guess

Being responsible for your milestones, and actually delivering those - if you brake up a project in smaller bits, you risk less...

Is anybody thinking or talking about certification for social media experts or the development of social media associations in the traditional sense?

@Paulus exactly

@Yvonne - you are not the only person asking for it:)

@yvonne That's probably the next step.

I do not think anything legitimate is there...but I might be wrong

@paulus  It usually is in the development of a new specialty - just a matter of when

Sure.

Can I ask something pretty relevant to Europe? How does social media report on COP15 in your regions?

do you mean frequency, tone or mechanisms?

Not. Social media blogs in Holland do not report on Copenhagen.

Just general buzz really - I do not see much from Poland, for instance - not many reactions...

I see, sorry. Still, I don't see the blogosphere or Twitter buzzing with stuff about COP15.

sorry guys, my computer went into Christmas mode I think so I got kicked out for 10 minutes..

@Marta, nice to have you back:)

I get the occasional tweet - more on mainstream media

ok, good you say it, I was wondering if it's just me...I would expect more...

now I have to read everything you posted- it was 20 minutes!:)

@Paulus I have a question for you related to your country - people speak English well, so how does it affect developments in social media - do people tweet in Dutch or rather in English?

@Yvonne a quick comment about your wondering about certification - how do you think this could work? because I'm afraid that any courses or organizations would focus on learning how to use the tools but I don't know if you can learn how to be a social media strategist

My guess: 80% Dutch, 20% English. Some, like myself, use both. The Dutch Twitter community is VERY close - and somewhat cosy - so people prefer their own language.

It's those who have international contacts that will use English. These people will also use Facebook (much) more than others.

Ah! And you see I thought it would be 80% in English! foolish me...

@ marta - true - it is like project management when it first arrived on the scene as a discipline and now with pm certification it still doesnt automatically make you a good project manager because it is all about your people skills

The Dutch tend to be less business-oriented than people in anglo-saxon countries. There's is also hardly any English-language blogging here.

@marta but I think there is a place for a "directory" of people - sort of self certifying through peer opinion (would have to be careful not to get elitist and exclusive though)

do you also have mirror services for everything like we do, in Poland?

Just one. It's called Hyves and it's a social network kinda like Facebook. Like Tuenty in Spain and Netlog in Belgium. They claim to have 50% of ALL Dutch as active users.

@Yvonne - true and I probably would like to be in that directory

I see.

@marta @yvonne Maybe the times of directories are over. I mean, we are heading toward a much more complicated online reputation mangement / digital identity, don't you think?

there's an interesting situation with social networks in Poland I think with the domination of nasza-klasa.pl

nasza-klasa was in the top 10 of UK sites last year:)

@Paulus I agree!

@Sylwia oh God didn't know that...

@paulus  I think there is still a need for an aggregation of talent unless you all have full calendars?

@paulus froma  consultancy point of view I mean

@Marta - are you following developments of the recent suggestions to restrict access to the web in Poland?

I have a tricky question - do you think you have to be a hard user of social networks, let's say Facebook to know how to plan a good strategy for a business there?

@Sylwia yes I am and it worries me..

I just read this morning that in Italy discussions kick off as well http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2009/dec/17/italy-internet-freedom-attack-berlusconi

@yvonne Sure, but I get all of my work through my network so I am a little biased.

@marta That's a tough one.

I've heard yesterday on the radio that there's going to be a "black list" of sites but only those promoting terrorism, pedophilia and so on have a chance to get there

@Marta can you tell us more about it? are bloggers reacting to it? I think I read today that the law was not passed in the end?

but there was another project which basically was about the fact that each Internet provider would have a list of sites that his customers would be able to access

@Marta when it comes to strategies for social networks I think you need to know how they work (as with any other tool) and have experience in social media strategies too

or is that the same bill?

@Sylwia I'm asking the question because I've been an online strategist for almost 4 years now and many times I've done a project for a company or brand or concerning a sector that I know nothing on, so I did the research and became a "2 week expert" on investment funds, or toothpaste, and so on..

but I think that with social media that's not enough

@marta like every good consultant you only have to know more than the client  but social media has very high risks for  brands and I believe you need experts

@marta you are an expert with your 4 years

so the "learn & forget" approach won't do. And another thing - you have to really be up to date - last month's knowledge just won't do. I must say this scares me a bit

@Yvonne, but social media is new for me - I started in may I think (I mean the business aspect, not private use )

@marta I am not feeling so bad now ...

and we've been doing our first projects since this fall (October), nothing major.

@marta Try and find the common elements. If you were an expert user of AltaVista in 1996, you are probably still good in using Google or Bing. Much experience vcan easily be transferred to other tools.

@Yvonne, I am really, really scared  really who am I to recommend what,let's say a multinational company should do on social media?

@Marta well, yes, you might be new to social media but I think you can pick it up, and yes - you do need to be on the topof new things and learn from other's experience - but I think it is crucial to understand 1. tools, 2. mechanisms of communication. 3. social nature of it and few more things you start realising using those tools

@Paulus that's true and I remember AltaVista

@marta Good consultants always live on the edge ...I did a bit of behavioural analysis in my previous business so that is a skillset I can draw on

@Sylvia I think there's a long way from understanding tools and mechanisms to planning good strategies but one can only learn from experience I guess

@Yvonne can you tell us something more about it?

(or me, I'm interested )

Ladies, it's time for me to leave..

I have enjoyed sharing with you.

Enjoy the holidays and see you in 2010. Sylwia thx for moderating.

@Marta - well, many times I do hear you need experience only - but I think it's what @Paulus said too - you can apply old rules too, just adjust them to new tools

and as I said earlier - learn from others - people do share case studies on-line, with good learnings, slideshare is my starting point usually;)

Bye Paulus

@Paulus thank you for joining us today!

@marta I did behavioural profiling for executives and teams

Have lovely holidays!

bye Paulus

@Sylwia yes I'm always looking for that and that's why I've "created" the facebook fan page - to collect interesting cases or research and to share it

I was in Macedonia recently talking to people on local social media and I found it really interesting how isolated the blogosphere seems to be there..http://sylwiapresley.wordpress.com/2009/12/10/i-media-skopje-macedonia/

Ive just been looking at these case studies http://bit.ly/7qOV7X

one of the critical remarks was 'why do we need to hear it from you, and cannot work it out ourselves' which in a way I do understand, but why not to learn from others?

actually, I can share a case the first project where we used social media for a client was a website for Avon which was to be localized in 20 countries

although I don't have full results, so just some findings. Sorry, 13 countries

@Sylwia I think you could say that they can do it for themsleves but if they get it wrong there is a big risk to their company or brand

how did it go?

I have to go now - it was great to talk to you.

@Yvonne yes, I agree

thank you for joining us:)

talk again soon  bye

I won't be sharing today unfortunately, I have a project to do and it's my last day at work this year

Bye Yvonne

Sylwia, maybe I can share it on Facebook later

Please do;) can you add me on FB plz?

@Yvonne bye!

of course my username is japonka

ok so I'm going too, bye!

oops, too many, can you find me? just sylwia.presley?

I think we should slowly wrap up for today, @Marta, do you agree?

OK, I will close it off, and just remind that in January we will talk about social media in North America. Please join us then - I will post the exact time closer to the date! Thank you for all your input!

It took Tangler 3 hours to send me a verification email - sorry to have missed all of this