I'm interested to find out more about how we we got here. What were your experiences, thought processes, education on the way to 'being an atheist'?

The assumption here of course, is that most of us grew up with religious influences of some sort. If you've always been an atheist, I'd love to hear about that too!

My parent's aren't religious, so my religious influences were always a little more remote - stuff in school, my grandparents, occasional church services from being in the Scouts younger variations (actually called Cubs and Beavers, but its just Scouts for younger kids). It meant that for a while I sort of assumed that God and Jesus and all the rest was real but was never really made certain of it... or really know what they meant by God (how many small children really understand the idea of God beyond "old guy in the sky who loves everyone and made everything and can see everything"?)

As I grew up and learned more, I slid away from it, and when I got old enough to really judge for myself I came down on the side of logic, rational thought and science.

(accidental double post there - my internet connection is sucking at the moment)

So do your parents and you share the same views now?

Well... they aren't really committed to any particular thing - it's not like I was picking up religion from the world despite them being atheists. I don't know exactly what my mum thinks but my dad tends to go for the idea that there's some kind of power/force in the world above the level of a human being, but hates the way the Christian church goes about things, between the decidedly un-Christian wealth of the church and the way they use the religion as a means of power + control, he switched off to it a long time ago.

He likes Taoism though.

ahh... okay. That's pretty cool.

I guess I should share my story

I grew up in a very religious household, and for the early part of my life, it served me well. I completely bought into/believed it. I used to fantasize about growing up and teaching my kids the same rituals, beliefs, stories etc.

I should mention that although we were Hindus, my parents brought us up to treat all religions equally. The theory being that all the religions were different paths to the same ultimate goal. So I went to a catholic kindergarten, and we made a pilgrimage to Lourdes etc.

Things changed as I became a teenager. I had questions which were never adequately answered, I observed things that didn't sit right with me. (Things like the treatment of women, the caste system etc)

I then ventured out into other religions, hoping they'd give me the answers I was looking for. All I could see were the inconsistencies. (And some parallels which were just as horrific)

Finally reached my 20s and at the same time the conclusion that religion was BS. A bunch of myths/stories thrown together.
I still clung on to the idea of a God though.

Now, thru all this, I had to consistently rework my frame of reference. (Things like morality etc.)

I am now an atheist. I can't actually remember when or how I gave up believing in a god.

The last step would be informing my parents. It's gonna be harder for them to swallow than when I rejected the notion of marriage i'm guessing. I think my mother has an inkling of where I stand, cos she's turned up the religious speak she throws my way. It's quite irritating. (Both my siblings remain very religious.)

It feels a bit weird. Like I need to come out to my parents or something

My experience sort of mirrors Dek's.  Mom's catholic, Dad claimed atheism until I was grown, then "found jesus" and got a mail-order ordination for a while.  He still plays at small things like saying grace at meals, but mostly he's given up because it was just a tool he used to try to control his kids anyway.

I went to a lot of different Catholic and Protestant churches growing up depending on where home was at the time.  Everything from Pentecostal to southern Baptist.  I got the same feelings of empty, ritualistic brain-washing from all of them.  Everything always seemed to be about money and control (power?).  In my teens I tried Wicca for shock value ... it still fits for me in a lot of ways, but I started sensing some of the same wrongnesses once it became a group meeting, ritual, discipline thing.  Maybe that's just human nature, but I can't seem to make a connection in a one-size-fits-all religion.

Like many, I began exploring a lot of different belief systems in my early twenties.  I learned a lot, but always came away feeling that everybody was in it for the search and nobody had the answers.  Logically, if that was the case, then I couldn't believe in any of them.  Hence, there is no "god" because nobody has ever put forth a good enough argument to convince me that there is.

I know what you mean about the ritual/discipline thing, there's something inherently worrying to me in some of the images and video I've seen of large-scale religious gatherings. Admittedly I've only seen it with Christianity as yet but I think it's something about the nature of organised religion, or anything where a mass of individuals fall into one group - you can see the same thing with football hooligans.

Could be an anthropological thing - gathering together, losing yourself into the identity of the group, it all makes for a cohesive little tribe or society. The problem being that the world has too many people for us to be tribal any longer. Creating strong cohesive in-groups makes an equally strong out-group, and from there its a short step to prejudice, discrimination and hate, unless of course you manage to get everyone in the world into your in-group (good luck with that )

Actually, I once spent some time with a local Ba'haai group. It was a very pleasant experience.

The all inclusive group you talk about SK, they came pretty close. I was upfront about my distaste for religion, and they welcomed me anyways. That group was more about community than religion. There were a myriad of races, nationalities, they obviously didn't use being Ba'haai as a prerequisite for 'membership' and there was never any move to try and convince me of their beliefs, or to convert me in a sense.

I do think that one of the reasons people still look to religion for answers and comfort because they're looking for a sense of belonging. It's easy to feel isolated in the world as it is right now.

It is just as easy to find that sense of community anywhere else, but I guess religion markets itself as having answers, which maybe works as a bonus for joining that community

*shrug*

That's true, you can have a close community that's still open and welcoming to outsiders, and a religion that doesn't turn you into a scary crazy person.

I suppose what I said earlier needs some qualifiers built in, limiting it to fundamental/evangelical groups (the ones who won't be open to outsiders without trying to convert them, and will apply all teachings of their belief even when it doesn't make sense to do so)

Those scare and repulse me from a mile away!

Side note:
I remember, at uni, there were all these people there specifically to recruit the students. I guess young people make easy targets.

I used to love baiting them and questioning every single thing they said.
You can make a game out of it. How many questions before they answer 'Cos it's in the book' or 'cos god said so'

Interesting topic, Dek. My story:

Grew up with parents who were non-practising Catholics and I can't remember religion ever being discussed while I was young. My maternal grandmother used to take me to church regularly though and I enjoyed the singing and Sunday school. When I was about 8, I would ride my bike to a local church every Sunday morning by myself. I distinctly remember one morning in church actually LISTENING to what the guy up the front was saying. I think it was the first time I actually listened. And he was talking about "we're all born into sin". At this stage I had a 1 year old baby sister and I thought about her and realized that anyone or any religioun which could look at her and say she was a sinner has serious problems. I never went back. A couple of years later I picked up a book on Zen out of the school library
completely randomly and it struck a chord.

For the next 20 years I was just a quiet atheist, actively involved in "seeking" via eastern methods of inquiry, but generally accepting of religions and religious people. Over the last few years I started to think more about the negative influence of religion in our society and now, of course, I am quite anti-religion.

Yeah, I have to say, I was accepting of religion too. It was more like - not my cup of tea, but you're welcome to it.

I have much less patience with it now.

Do you still research eastern philosophies Cam? What about Zen? Does it continue to influence you?

I'm trying to figure out where I stand in comparison to you "guys".  These two thoughts, "I am quite anti-religion" and "I have much less patience with it now", are irritating the edges of my thought processes.  I am tolerant of religion at this point, but am I still tolerant or am I coming at it from a different perspective?  Isn't intolerance of another's belief system just one step closer to our own form of fanaticism?  Just asking.

If someone came to you saying they believed Earth was flat, and it could be no other way, would you let them be or try and educate em about what you know?

Believe me, having tried to convince people of things outside their convictions, I would walk away.  If a person persistently clings to erroneous beliefs in the face of massive amounts of evidence to the contrary, there is not one thing I can do to change that.  They'll either come to it on their own or they won't.  Either way, it's not my problem, it's theirs.

Let me clarify that last bit ... if the person was a child, I would attempt to educate them.  I would not attempt to educate an adult.

I don't think that being an adult necessarily means one is well-informed.

When I have conversations with people, the one thing that constantly surprises me is their ignorance about the different perspectives out there.

I think we're taught to think a certain way when we are young, and most of us don't think beyond it, or find other ways of looking at the same issue.

I think some form of critical thinking should be taught fairly early on in school. Might help these things along...

Dek, I'm not saying that adults are any more well-informed ... more along the lines of SK's observation ... reaching adulthood tends to breed the view that one has learned "enough".  I can't be bothered wasting my time trying to educate someone who thinks they don't need to learn.

By adulthood you're naturally already somewhat set in your ways - if those ways happen to include being adaptable or thinking critically then all the better (although you'd probably still get less adaptable over time.. just less so). If you get stuck in a rut of dogma and ingrained belief then it takes a concerted effort to overcome that, and requires the co-operation of the person in question - they need to be openminded and not just block you out.

Dek, i still produce a podcast called "The Advaita Show" which examines "eastern" ideas such as the answer to the question "what am I?"

Super-King - teaching critical thinking to kids is incredibly important, I agree. I'm trying to teach my kids to always examine the evidence for any claim made to them by other kids or adults, including myself and their teachers. I'd love to have a podcast on TPN which provided tools for kids around that subject.

Cool! Thanks Cam. Will check it out

I remember seeing a scan of a detention slip issued for disagreeing with and/or being disrespectful to a teacher in class, the issue being that she claimed a kilometre was longer than a mile and the kid dared to try and correct her. Even on the note home she admitted he was right, but said he shouldn't have been disrespectful and should have just accepted what she said.

NO. He shouldn't, it's perfectly right to take a stand there and tell the stupid lady she's wrong.

Another thing that seems to be becoming a slowly creeping cancer is the idea that we have to respect everyone's individual opinions, just because they're personal opinions. This only becomes a problem when it intersects with matters of fact - on those things that are established to be one way or another facts there is no room for "well I believe that..." and "you can't tell me I'm wrong, it's what I believe"

I'll support your right to have an opinion, to have whatever opinion you want, but I also reserve the right to laugh in your face and call you an idiot if you tell me that opinion and it's full of crap.

Growing up in "old Europe" and being raised by a liberal, open-minded and supportive family, the only thing I would've ever found interesting about religion were old church buildings and a few Biblical tales. I was really into fantasy and science-fiction as a kid.

When I was seven, I was kicked out of religion class for making "bad jokes" on the Jesus Christ baby and allegedly disturbing my classmates' studies. There's a genetic disposition to religiosity and there are absolutely no religious relatives in my rather big family.

I often wonder what it would be like to have grown up in a non-religious environment. The rest of the world must seem fairly strange

In my homecountry Switzerland religion and politics are completely separated. It's not important whether you believe in Allah or read the Tora, whether you humbly punish yourself in front of Jesus Christ or put more sauce on your Flying Spaghetti Monster. In biology class it's only Darwin who matters.

We have a few fundamentalist groups - subsidiaries of American fundamentalist groups -, but they're not powerful. Only very few young people are attracted to it. If they are, it's mostly because Christians - and especially die-hard Christians - utterly disdain and discriminate homosexuality and pre-marital sex.

I pretty much just ambled into it. I was christened as COE, vaguely remember a couple of sunday school lessons as a little nipper and the obligatory school period lessons at a public school (now non-existent - the lessons that is not the school). Found science much more interesting than stories in the bible and the idea of an all powerful superbeing in the sky didn't hold with my own deductions. Religion just seemed way too rigid and not "my cup of tea", especially in the face of scientific discoveries - which on the whole were more open to revision as more evidence came to light.

I haven't gone on any soul searching quest to find a religion to attach myself to - i pretty much have a general knowledge of most of the main religions and a few cults! and i lump them all together. Religion definitely does not help, interest or offer me comfort in any way. In some of my ranting moments i can be known to attach extremist religion to a lot of problems but it's not the only thing out there causing problems in society. I have a daughter with another on the way and i will be generating a desire in them to be critical thinkers - but i won't be bad mouthing religion unless they provide examples of their stupidity.

So - considering my predeliction to science - not a very scientific way to discount something that most of the world seem to believe in in some form or other. But until a religion can come up with something better . . . . . .

to discount something that most of the world seem to believe in in some form or other

I wonder how many people are out there that just don't want to make the decision (to completely let go of the religion they align with). I know quite a few people who are pretty ambivalent about religion, and the role it has in their life, but still go through the motions in the event of a marriage for example.

It's interesting to see that so many participants pretend to have lost their interest in religion due to logical reasoning. But emotions come first, reason comes second. I don't think that we have to explain our loss of interest rationally to make ourselves 'superior' and 'feel good' and 'have a good time'. The hyper-rational attitude that comes foward in this discussion is pure self-deceit.

I don't agree with that....

Thing is, so many things in religion just don't make sense. That starts the investigative process in most cases.

I mean seriously, how are you supposed to sit back and curb your questions with all the weird stuff they throw at you?

I attended high school with two evangelical fundamentalists in my class. That taught me not to care about what narrow-minded hicks say. You can rationally defend everything, if you try hard enough.

Anyway, they didn't take part in yoga at gym class, because yoga is supposed to be Satanic.

emotions come first, reason comes second

No, I actually do prefer to think about things rationally when the decision is important enough.

You can rationally defend everything, if you try hard enough.

Also wrong, you might be able to make some argument for anything, but if it's not rationally based then it's pure rhetoric - designed to convince an audience that it makes sense without necessarily actually doing so. To actually rationally defend something, it does need to have solid foundation in reason and logic.

Even so, the narrow-minded hick types are still ignorable once you realise that a. their "arguments" (if you can call them that) will all be illogical, most likely copied from some Christian "answer to the atheists" type website, and also most likely already debunked, and b. that they will never be convinced of your viewpoint, so why waste breath on trying to argue the point?

Hadn't heard that yoga was Satanic... I suppose it originates in places where they practice non-Christian religions (and perhaps that makes it Satanic to their minds) Lumping everything that isn't Christianity under "Satanism" seems a little harsh though. Kinda similar to newspeak in 1984... all non-party thought was "thoughtcrime" so that no-one would have the words available to actually discuss dissenting views 

No, I actually do prefer to think about things rationally when the decision is important enough.

Decisions are largely based on feelings and unconscious emotions, as brain research has pointed out. Reason is just the tip of the iceberg that makes your mood seem 'okay' and 'appropriate'.

To actually rationally defend something, it does need to have solid foundation in reason and logic.

What I wanted to say is: You will always find events and occurrences that confirm your convictions.

(...) so why waste breath on trying to argue the point?

I completely agree. But I know (a few) Christians who are open-minded about evolution and do not hastily dismiss it.

Hadn't heard that yoga was Satanic... I suppose it originates in places where they practice non-Christian religions (and perhaps that makes it Satanic to their minds) Lumping everything that isn't Christianity under "Satanism" seems a little harsh though. Kinda similar to newspeak in 1984... all non-party thought was "thoughtcrime" so that no-one would have the words available to actually discuss dissenting views

It's just about framing others with alarming labels.

It's just about framing others with alarming labels.

Exactly, if it's not the thing you want people to support, giving it a name that sounds bad discourages anyone from doing so.

You may well be right about the emotions thing... I've seen articles/reports about how we tend to go with our gut then make up reasons after the event to justify whatever decision we already made... but some things I still think are reasoned decisions... unless I just have a rationally-minded gut 

What I wanted to say is: You will always find events and occurrences that confirm your convictions.

Well that's not rational defence , its confirmation bias 

You may well be right about the emotions thing... I've seen articles/reports about how we tend to go with our gut then make up reasons after the event to justify whatever decision we already made... but some things I still think are reasoned decisions... unless I just have a rationally-minded gut 

I do not rule out self-control per se, but I often encounter people who are affected by prejudices, subconscious emotions and internalized social structures that have already taken a life on their own. They subsequently claim to have come to their conclusion through logical reasoning. And I'm impressed by Nietzsche's ideas on epistemology.

Well that's not rational defence, its confirmation bias

.. veiled in rational defence.

But it's still not rational, not in the sense of being logical anyway.. as opposed to rational in the sense of "involves some kind of thought process". 

i just revisited this thread - saw all the comments by Dino.

I'd have to say he was right - i originally 'felt' that religion wasn't for me - but i found something that could answer that feeling and provide a framework that led me towards atheism - the logical and rational process that science provides was something that led me to my belief that gods do not exist. The feeling/emotion by itself could not be justified (that is what faith is) - i grew up in an open environment where we weren't expected to be robots that do what we're told without question.