I have a dilemma... Private or Public High School for my two boys? If we can afford it I'd probably enrol them in a private school but we are not religious and don't want our children going somewhere where Christian values are taught (It seems almost all private schools are denominational). We also do not know where we will be living and all these schools require non-refundable deposits of around $300 per child, with no guarantee that they will even be granted an interview, let alone be offered a place.... Aarrgghhh. Do we have options here in Australia?

Go public - the education system here sucks anyway - just look at the skills shortage.  If education is THAT important then move to Canberra or Europe, but your child's education is a function of the school plus the parents, so if you take on your side of the responsibility then you won't have to worry about bub having to come to terms with the seemingly bizarre facts of Gen Y life: rubber grows on trees/money doesn't

I am hoping the new principal at the local public high school will improve the school's rep'n and results by the time Henry is ready to go. In the past it has had a bad bullying record and quite ordinary academic results. Word on the street this new guy is very good.

I tend to discriminate against private schools. I was schooled in the public system and worry about the "sheltered life" a private school encourages. But then again, these schools provide a fantastic education, give kids pride in learning etc... I had a bit of academic ability so survived my public school - others were not so fortunate... 

The Skills Shortage is a huge issue too. Private schools tend to focus on pathways to university education. My children may want to learn a trade and start their own businesses....

I'm a bit of an education sceptic myself, not having quite made it over the line into university - it's a long story.  I was educated in public school and high school and where I come from private school is quite unusual and does not qualify for any state subsidy as far as I am aware.  I have a lot of friends here who send their kids to private or catholic schools and as far as I can tell their kids learn all of the good social skills that go with team sport but still can't tell you the capital of France, the atomic number of oxygen or the square toot of 25.

Based on other postings I think your kids are about the same age as mine (5&3?)...my son is due to go to school in January next year and we are unwilling to entertain anything except public school, not least because it is free and it is run by people for whom education is a true vocation, but also because anything else offends our environmental sensibilities: public school is within walking distance. Besides, if we involve ourselves in his education and in the life of the school then we can try to influence matters.

I have a friend whose wife is qualified as a teacher in Ireland - her comment on the Australian curricula is pretty disparaging, suggesting that the kids here are generally a year, agewise, behind european education standards.

On a separate note, has anybody read any of those studies that indicate that second children tend to do less well at school?..it points to a variety of circumstances that manifest themselves in a more complacent parental attitude with second children than with first.  It seems plausible that child number 2 is not given as much attention, is not the focus of as much concern and is perhaps not mentored as much as number 1 was, ergo number 1 becomes a neurosurgeon and number 2 a prison officer.

I was the youngest of three siblings but I'll always be the favourite 

It seems plausible that child number 2 is not given as much attention, is not the focus of as much concern and is perhaps not mentored as much as number 1 was

hmmm.... sounds familiar, but then the second child learns to do as well - cos they think it'll get them attention....
You're only in trouble when they figure out that the good grades isn't getting them anything

My brother was smarter than me and did better academically than me. I am the eldest... so, don't know about that study... 

Oh Rira - I was wondering about private schooling for high school. We have a fantastic public primary school down the road so didn't think twice about sending Henry there. It's more the secondary educ'n I am thinking about.

I also think parents have a HUGE influence on what their children end up wanting to do - their ambition, work ethic, esteem etc... So. I don;t really want to place TOO MUCH emphasis on the school but also realise it does have an influence... 

Oh...out where we live there seem to be lots of primary schools and then you have to go to Google maps to find a secondary school.  I live in Coogee, where there are five primary schools within a 2k radius of the house - one of which is not public.  The nearest secondary school is at Randwick and it is a so-called "selective" boys school, then there are two other single-sex  schools slightly further away...it s all a bit bizarre really.  I'd like my son and daughter to go to a public secondary - probably more for altruistic reasons than anythings else.  If you are concerned about how "well" your child will do then in NSW the public schools tend to score higher on average, but if you want your child to get a good general education and be socially aware and confident, then don't kid yourself: your school has little part to play in that - it's up to the parents.

In terms of career, many kids still follow their parents careers and indeed girls in Australia still lean more toward arts and languages and boys toward sciences.  Here is another thought: children do better in co-educational primary schools, boys do better in co-educational secondary schools, but girls do better in single sex secondary schools.  I went to two secondary schools and I was marginally less useless in the mixed gender school.

People keep telling me boys don't do well in co-ed schools

From one of many documents on the net...fascinating reading:

It has been widely demonstrated (e.g., Gilligan, 1982; Spender, 1982) that boys typically attract more of the teacher's attention than girls in coeducational classrooms. Dale Spender has documented this generalisation in her book "Invisible Women". Spender found that girls, especially in the junior secondary years, are reluctant to express their viewpoints in front of boys. Gill (1991) reported that higher teacher-male student interaction was more common when the teacher was inexperienced. More experienced teachers adopted strategies in the classroom to reduce the imbalance in interaction with boys and girls. Nevertheless, boys still received more teacher attention than girls. The reluctance of girls to speak up in class does not necessarily mean that girls are disadvantaged in terms of their classroom learning or educational achievement. In an extensive classroom observational study in South Australian schools, Gill (1992) reported that boys asked more trivial questions merely to gain the teacher's attention, whereas girls were more likely to seek clarification for their learning problems from friends or their seating partner.

Historically, the most important research into single-sex/coeducational differences is the English psychologist, R.R. Dale's (1969, 1971, 1974) 26-year-long study of English grammar schools, where students were selected on the basis of their performance of the 11+ examination. Dale's major emphasis was on the social effects of co-education. In his third volume (1974), however, he expanded his research variables to include overall and subject-specific indicators of student achievement. On the basis of his research findings he concluded that "it has been demonstrated that the average coeducational grammar school is a happier community for both staff and pupils than the average single-sex school; it has equally been demonstrated that this happiness is not at the expense of academic progress" (Dale, 1974, p 273). When reporting the specific findings on mathematics achievement, Dale stated that: "Throughout the researches there is a clear superiority of co-educated boys over boys in boys' schools ... Similar superiority may exist for the co-educated girls over girls in girls' schools, though ... its amount is sometimes hidden by the operation of other forces" (1974, p 59). For attainment in English, Dale found no clear support for the advantage of either type of school for boys or girls. Dale concluded that "a cautious summing up would be that the progress of boys is probably improved by co-education while that of girls is not harmed" (1974, p 269).

conclusion?...all very subjective and sometimes anecdotal, but boys seem to do better while the jury is out on those gurls

from the same document:

Australian research findings on the effects of gender-based education are conflicting. For example, a longitudinal study was conducted in a Victorian high school which randomly allocated Year 7 and 8 students into coeducational or single-sex classes in a coeducational school. When the students were administered items from standardised mathematics achievement tests on three occasions over a two-year period, the researcher (Rowe, 1988) found no gender differences in achievement based on the type of maths class, but did report increased levels of confidence in learning and using mathematics by girls in single-sex classes. He concluded that being placed in a single-sex class leads to girls' greater confidence about their maths ability "which, in turn, significantly increased the likelihood of their subsequent participation in senior mainstream mathematics education" (Rowe, 1988, p 80).

On the other hand, Carpenter (1985) examined the Year 12 achievement scores of a sample of over 1200 carefully selected Queensland students. He reported that student achievement in a given type of school was influenced by a number of variables including the curriculum, teachers' encouragement and the social class background of the students. He found that "while single-sex schooling appears an advantage to the daughters of mothers who are white collar workers to avoid low year 12 marks and gain medium results, coeducational schooling offers such girls a small advantage in achieving high marks. Among girls whose mothers did not hold a paid job single-sex schooling offers a little more insurance against scoring low marks" (Carpenter, 1985, p 469).

 I've just realised I had the best of both worlds

Now...to the thorny issue of birth order: http://www.apo.org.au/linkboard/results.chtml?filename_num=64390

I'm not reading that..... cos I know the middle spot is the best

Came across this today:

Firstborn children are smartest, study finds

Re birth order. I must be the smartest then.  

Re the schools thing.

We have no co-ed public high schools nearby. They are all single-sex public schools. One selective and one non-selective... 

I thought that last study was interesting. About first borns being treated differently, dealing with higher expectations from parents.... food for thought.... Nothing to do with genetics, rather completely socially determined.

Not shocking either