As I had just posted something, I was looking through the group
activity and noticed that there really isn't the level of activity in
the Tangler group as there ever was on the Google one.



Is this because the same numbers of people haven't transferred from
Google or have we in fact got MORE members who have found the group
from Tangler but just not contributed?



Is anything Tangler is doing/not doing preventing people from contributing?



I have nothing to do with Tangler but I am passionate about Pinko and
if the community-advocating marketing group can't communicate then what
chance is there to spread the word?!

It's a great question. And coming from the Tangler side it's important to answer.

One thing that jumps to mind is the reach of Tangler. Mailing lists push directly to users, so you're notified quickly and consistently, and then the barrier to contribute is low (reply to the email). Tangler is not a solution that replaces mailing lists, at least not yet. So I don't think it should be used in that way. Tangler works where a forum would; many disconnected users accessing via the web.

I think two featuers for Tangler would really help though: embedding, where you'll be able to include the conversation inside a third-party side, and RSS feeds. 

I think it is a shame, and I hope Tara can get it moving again either in Google or in Tangler when we go public.

Two things that come to mind for me are;

1. Tangler is in beta. Pinko decided to try Tangler even though it was early. That's the kind of people in Pinko and I'm grateful for them for trying it. Reality is that Tangler being private and still making big steps with features and performance is a barrier to use that makes it tough on a young group.

2. All groups need drivers. This one might be controversial, but I don't think that within Tangler or in Google groups that there was enough work done on posting fresh topics and more discussion fodder. This could be due to confusion about where to post, but there just wasn't enough kindling to keep this fire going. A lot of this is my fault since I was the one who suggested trying Tangler, so I should have taken responsibility for keeping the energy up - for that I apologise.

Either way, I think Pinko is worth driving. Tangler Pinko is going to bubble along, and Tara is driving Pinko in Google and on the blog.

Keep the Pinko faith! 

Cheers 

RSS definitely on the list. It's a must. Only a matter of when. 

Hey guys, thanks for the responses. I appreciate your honesty and thoughts.

Marty,
I think you are absolutely right on the RSS front - Tangler lends
itself so perfectly to RSS. I don't know if you are going to use a page
view revenue model or have something else in mind, but if PV is
not the driver, RSS is perfect and would allow a much easier and more
penetrative system of contribution without the need for email.

I remember on the Pinko group once, people with "email me all posts"
subs soon got sick of quick, frantic banter as it registered an email
every time someone posted. RSS avoids this. It is uninvasive but
penetrative. Email, however relevant is penetrative but all too often
considered too intrusive.

In theory every post should contain something of value so
subscriptions via RSS allow non-line users to still receive comments of
value on a subject of interest (particularly RSS-enabled mobile users).

That's a good point.  We've got some work to do to balance deep and meaningful with friendly banter. Don't want to exclude it, but need someway of identifying it.

Hey Mick

I take your point about feeling the need to drive the group, but you might also argue that like with many things, there is a natural level of activity that all groups have. Forcing it might dilute the quality. I am sure we have all had group members who post more than some spambots!

Whilst you also make a useful reminder about Tangler being in Beta, I genuinely don't think there is anything about the UI or way it works that prevents people from using it - hence my oringial questions - why are Pinko's not getting involved?!

With the last meaningful post on the google group being 18th Jan - and nothing (apart form a question asking where everyone has gone!)  there should be no reason people aren't posting! Lazy sods!

Yep, I certainly wasn't talking about artificially inflating the activity. Just the usual, and that wasn't there. Normally there was new topics every week. I think people initially got less response then via google groups due to the emailing follow up and then it went down hill.

Tangler being in beta is only a contributory factor. Just made it a little bit harder and the email wasn't there back on 18th of Jan, so it takes time.

Maybe together we can give it a kick up the back side and move it along again? You're posts here are a good start.  However, Tara got some more detailed feedback about the challenges Tangler presented to the group. She should post them here... 

That was part of the reason for my initial post - it was normally quite
busy. Plus the fact, with Pinko advocating community, it does smell of
hypocrisy if the members don't practice what they preach!


(then again, england invented cricket and looked what happened there!).



Furthermore, with so many people experienced in the implementation of
communities (and the inherent problems), the group is possibly as
useful a group of beta testers as you are likely to get. maybe reaching
out for advice is a good idea! There are always people who are willing
to amend a concept once it is up and running, but not quite as many
willing/able to lay the concept down in the first place.



You already have the foundations, maybe people will find it easier to critique/contribute of asked for help?

For me, it's a matter of changing behaviour.   I consistenly had 2 tabs continuously open in the browser - mail and bloglines.   I've added Twitter the last few months and now I've been prompted to add Tangler by a reminder email that got sent out..   If that is set up to always open, then I will look at it.  Remebering to open the site was the barrie.   Of course, with RSS I could add it to the feedreader and be reminded that way.

Having participated in many different online communities, I think that it's tough to move a community from one online virtual space to another. There always seems to be a certain percentage of people who resist the change, and who dissent against it. Personally, it doesn't bother me, and I'm always interested in helping people beta test social software. But I am a minority early adopter.

One of the things that could really drive Pinko community IMO would be to get it active in many communities. Tangler and/or Google (I prefer Tangler) could be a kind of central meeting place for the community, but also thinking about how to create local applications that benefit other communities. I personally think our discussions are interesting here, but I've been very busy lately trying to think about ways to apply Pinko in combination with other ideas, like Open Business Models, Sustainable energy, Open Design, money pooling and  Revenue sharing models, etc, which has taken time away from me being able to discuss in groups like this. 

Plus the discussion here is more about Silicon Valley, Google, Yahoo, and the bigger companies lately, and I am more interested in creating applications that the average group of people can use to help them solve problems they actually care about, or help them create a way to make a living, etc.

One application that I am developing with the Collective Problem Solving Community that I think  is actually very related to Unmarketing is what we call OrganizedInquiry .  This is where a group of people basically brainstorm and develop an idea, then refine their brainstorming into a set of questions that they research and look for answers to. The OrganizedInquiry can also be extended out to other communities that might be interested in the subject. This helps to:

• Create connections among people who are passionate about the subject
• Create a Q&A-based knowledge commons about subject matter
• Create a reference point for a community tryng to develop an actual application

I can't include Tangler into this so much, because only those currently invited into Tangler can come here and see what people are saying. I'm guessing that will change when Tangler moves from beta testing to being open.

(the rest of this is just some suggestions related to tangler, and not really directly about Pinko marketing community possibly dying off in tangler)  Anyway, my main point is that I think that the direction of evolution in web communication tools is to give people tools and environments that help them solve problems they are interested in. Tangler accomplishes this so far by being, IMO, very intuitive and easy to use. Another next step to think about is (and maybe someone else has already suggested this) how well does Tangler play with other applications? YouTube, Google Maps, Flickr, Twitter (maybe something like (send a link to twitter), blogs (perhaps a way to blog about a conversation), wikis, firefox plugins, etc. Is there, or will there be an API for Tangler? What If I had the option of sending messages to tangler from email? Or, subscribing to certain threads from email? Are there features in the Flock browser that Tangler can take advantage of? How can Tangler enable people to use it's Social Network functions better? What if there were a way for me to skype or gizmo people that I see online in Tanlger, right from Tangler?  Will tangler support microformats? What if a group wants to do something in Tangler with ma.gnolia or del.icio.us bookmarks? What are other people saying about Tangler?

Also, the thing about closed beta tests is that when you  when you bust open the side of the silo eventually, you have change the nature of the environment. You'll get a whole different set of feedback, and you may drive out some users. 

I think the biggest factor so far is that it is in limited beta but equally Sam, you make a good point about in being a natural "app" to use.  We don't have to think about using out mouths to talk which is why we can talk so quickly. We can't quite type as quickly though because we have to think about it.

 Using an app should be the same - and I too think tangler achieves is...so if the app isn't the reason people are posting...what is?!

proliferation of tools, too many conflicting interests, lack of time to try to acclimate to yet another forum, yet another online space. It's too easy to compete for people's time an attention these days. Almost anyone can start a forum or discussion group in a myriad of places online. And, then there is social intertia when those spaces are created, against moving to new spaces (I don't moving, or trying new stuff, but I'm a minority in this).

I'll bet in the case of Pinko marketing folks that it could also be that it is just a busy time for many people, which leaves less time for the conversations we've been having here. The wiki has also been inactive. Would be cool actually to go through what is in Tangler and the google group and see what could be summarized into useful pages for in the wiki, from all of the discussions we've had so far.  

Fair point Sam, especially about what we could put in the wiki - although from memory, T said that she was binning it for a while because of ther spam wasn't she?