perhaps i am missing something here. i think the Tangler approach to UI is intriguing. but, i am wondering what happens to the Topics>Discussions>Post content hierarchy found in conventional Forum UI.

for example, if i am browsing the topics of a forum on the left, do i have to click to activate that topic to view discussion? and if so, how can i quickly browse different discussions to choose which one i want to participate in?

in the current configuration, clicking on the list of topics on left populates the content area with a list of posts related to that topic. with each post there are indented comments showing a thread for that topic discussion. can i look at the list of discussions of that Topic without the visual noise of having to sift through the discussion posts?

is there a way to customize the interface, as a user, so that the "view" i am using does not show actual posts in a Topic Discussion unless i expand the discussion?

unless i am missing something, the interface concept seems half-executed.  a really nice idea, but incomplete. missing critical usability convention.

any thoughts? 
 

I'm confused by "with each post there are indented comments showing a thread for that topic discussion".

The posts aren't threaded - the hierarchy just goes Forum > Topic > Post

So this post is in the "Topics VS Discussions VS Posts" topic in the "Tangler Feedback" forum. There's no layers in between

What exactly do you mean when you say Discussion? It feels like I've missed something.

I agree, SK, I think we cannot make distinction because we don't support thread conversation within a topic... yet.

ok,maybe i am not communicating my question correctly.

let's see, the hierarchy is:

FORUM>TOPIC>DISCUSSION
 

i see what my confusion is now. i suppose i didn't realize that Tangler Feedback was the FORUM Name. I suppose i considered Tangler Feedback to be part of  a larger abstract "Tangler Forum."

@Mick, in your comment you are showing Tangler as the "parent," but technically Tangler Feedback is the "parent," correct?
 
 

Hey Tris, this is how Tangler works.............

Tangler -> the network of discussion forums.

Discussion forums -> individual forums that are made up of lots of topics.

Topics -> a linear, single threaded discussion made up of consecutive posts from lots of users.


 

1 Tangler has lots of forums

1 forum has lots of topics

1 topic has lots of posts, shown from the oldest to the newest.

Hope that helps, keen to hear more ideas.
 

(I saw that pic on flickr and was wondering what it was for - you may consider back linking your illustrations from flickr to the places you end up using them)

mmm that diagram above - could you not use it as the basic Tangler (home pages?? 'TANGLER' is your home page for your lnks/forums) interface with each branch opening out another window type thing.. ( i know what I mean but can not put  it into words atm - just woke up)

uhhh...gotta work on the "return" key submitting post instead of resulting in hard return.

typically, in the realm of forums et al, this is the structure i am accustomed to:

Tangler Forum

topic>Tangler people who like cheese (always viewable unless you are in "post" view"

          >Cheddar (posts in this topic are only viewable once someone clicks on "cheddar")

          >Provolone

          >Does American Cheese count?

     >Does Fred Flintstone Pimp the booty or what?

          >Barney is way more fly

          >Dino doesn't appreciate the funky collar

my point(s) are that when looking at the TOPICS i can also see the DISCUSSIONS, but not the POSTS. the POSTS are only visible once you choose a topic.

this is more than anything, a usability issue. i don't want to have to choose a TOPIC in order to see the discussions in that topic. i should be able to see the DISCCUSSIONS as they are related to the TOPICS

i am getting the impression that the concept of DISCUSSION is irrelavent in the Tangler model, but i think i would reconsider.

eg:

TOPIC1

  DISCUSSION1

  DISCUSSION2

  DISCUSSION3

TOPIC2

  DISCUSSION1

  DISCUSSION2

TOPIC3

  DISCUSSION1

  DISCUSSION2

let's say i can then click on TOPIC3, DISCUSSION2

once there, i can look at POSTS related to that DISCUSSION.

i am asserting that a discussion is a series of back and forth posts. inherently, a discussion forum is a place that discussions take place. organized by topics and populated by posts.

maybe i am stoned?

heh

tris, you can toggle between chat mode & post mode (next to the send button)... in latter mode enter goes to the next line, in chat mode enter sends the post

this is more than anything, a usability issue. i don't want to have to choose a TOPIC in order to see the discussions in that topic. i should be able to see the DISCCUSSIONS as they are related to the TOPICS

There are no distinct discussions within any one topic - just a series of posts.

There may be multiple threads of conversation running at once like

Person 1: I say thing!
Person 2: Something different!
Person 3: I have an opinion on Person 1's thing!
Person 4: Me too!
Person 5: I have opinion on Person 2's Something Different!
(One strand of the topic being in normal, the other being in italic)

But these aren't demarcated in any way that you would be able to view them in the topic list, without opening up the topic and understanding the flow of conversation.

To have individual, separated discussions, within a topic, like you're describing (I think) we'd need to add "reply to" buttons so you can specify which post you're responding to and hence which strand of the conversation you're adding to.

I prefer the "all lumped together" approach personally... makes it seem more friendly and less formalised.

hmmmm

@super

it appears we ain't connectin'

i don't think i am referring to or examining the viability of the threaded or non-threaded organization of the actual posts. i believe the chat/non-chat mode solves any issues that might be a problem there

my issue, or curiosity, is that Tangler has created  a Forum interface that is non-conventional.  or perhaps for some reason i am not seeing or recognizing any convention.

if you go to  place like digg.com, you'll see a list of topics, you click on one and you are taken to a page with the topic at the top and then a series of posts below.

a post can be converted into a discussion once someone comments on a post.

the digg.com UI hierarchy is quite clear and easy to grasp. and i'd argue not a good model for a pure discussion forum.

if you go to a site like this: http://www.createforum.com/jantje/

you'll see it is organized with categorical topic groupings, you click one and then you see discussions related to the categorical topic you chose, and then click through to see actual posts that comprise the discussion. in my experience, this is the most successful UI convention in the realm of forums.

how does the Tangler UI support this UI convention? or, is there a new approach to forum UI that is being implemented with Tangler? if so, i would love it is someone would explain it to me.

i would think that Tangler is intending to create a model that can be monetized by attracting forum users and gaining some degree of adoption of their product. maybe not. i am not in a position to know.

as it stands, i am researching potential forum apps to use for a couple of projects and was intrigued by Tangler for reasons that are still valid despite my consternation with the UI.

however, i am sort of stymied by this UI issue, as i feel if the usability is not intuitive, or at least adheres to established convention, then adoption potential will be considerably compromised.

i am willing to drink the kool aid, but need someone to tell me why it tastes so delicious first.

PS - can someone fix the return/send issue already?

Tris, the other thing that is missing, but coming soon, is categories. That let's you organise topics into groups.

Tangler -> Forums -> Categories -> Topics -> Messages

@mick

bingo!

that is what is bothering me. i think the look and feel is exciting so far. but the category element is critical for my sensibilities. although i do a lot of usability consulting, i couldn't quite articulate the exact thing that was bothering me.

isn't this just a simple issue of altering the database tables and how they are organized a bit?

ah.. now I have not been missing categories per se but they will do much good. In one group dear to me it would be nice to have a category for random / off topic stuff

I think the whole confusion here was that Tris was calling it this:

Topic : Discussion : Post

whereas in Tangler, the equivalent things are called:

Forum : Topic : Post

I don't think Categories are missing, I think it was just nomenclature confusion, since he used Topic in a different way than Tangler uses Topic.

He wants to see [Tangler] Topics while viewing a list of [Tangler] Forums.

Anyway, FWIW, I have already requested an aggregate [Tangler] Topic list.  I hope it's somewhere near in the pipes...

I want to see categories while taking a look at he lsit of topics in a forum. Useful when activley discussing 20 different and "loosely related" topics in one forum. Basicly a two-level tree structure with "category > topics".

So when you click on a category it will be expanded and show the topics, and then you'll be able to choose a topic in the list.

do you mean both category->topics and forum->topics or category->forum->topics as one see more typically on large forum sites?

Tangler > Forum > List of categorys to the left > Topics that are shown as nodes when you click on a category > Posts
 to the right side

Imagine the current topic list being a category list, and that the current topics are shown when clicking on a category.

Ok, now I'm confused. But I don't know why.... maybe just because it's late and my brain is full of sleep and fuzz.

I don't really see what the Tangler setup is missing over other forum styles, I guess you could drop in an extra layer of hierarchy..  make each Tangler group like its own little forum with sub-sections within the overall subject of the group.

Actually it all just clicked.. I think I get what you're saying now. If I'm wrong just don't let me know, that way I can go away feeling like I figured something out 

Yeah, I see categories as just a way to organise the topics in a forum. Don't think we need a higher level as yet

geez, i never intended this to be such an elongated discussion

to me, this is what a "message board" looks like:

Forum = "place" that people (or bots collectively participate in discussions related to various topics with an abstract subject

Topics = the list of topics arguably related to the abstract subject matter

      ***For ease of use and organization. these topics could be organized categorically****

Discussions = the actual conversations

Posts = The comments from each contributing participant

if i am using the forum to manage the start up of a new web company, i might need the following organization>

FORUM (Forum)

BUSINESS MODEL (Category)

  business plan, (Topic)

  documentation,

  competitors,

  strategic alliances

WEB DEVELOPMENT (Category)

  requirements, (Topic)

  look and feel,

  mock-ups,

  bugs

i'd like to be able to see this exact information on one page without having to click on, for example, BUSINESS MODEL just to see the Topics. i can see all the topics that fall under ALL categories on one page.
 

i found this site by searching for a suitable Forum app to use while in the process of collaborating with project team members. i could have used PHPBB for example, but i wanted something fresh and perhaps somewhat evolved. Tangler seemed to be the ticket until i encountered this issue, so i simply wanted to find out if there had been any thinking about this or not.

i am certainly not trying to yank anyone's chain, just wanting to broach the subject to see what others think.

Tris

Looks to me like the only thing missing from your list is categories for topics.

We definitely have thought about it, and it is on our road map

Tris: It looks to me that you just want the standard "Forum > Discussion > Post" model, except with the "Forum" level branched out into its own hierarchy of arbitrary depth.  In your example, that depth is 3: "Forum > Category > Topic", and then the standard hierarchy follows: "Topic > Discussion > Post".

I think the reason that the higher levels of your desired hierarchy are missing in Tangler is that nobody ever considered that Tangler forums would need to be aggregated together under higher-level umbrella groupings.

Personally, I still think that's the case, but that's only because I'm not a forum "browser"; I know what forums I am interested in, and head straight for them.  I'm not interested in getting a list of "all Tangler forums that have to do with X".

@Tris:

If you don't want to click on the categories to open them, there should be a personal option for everybody to choose if the categories should be opened or closed by default.
 

@dekrazee1

great! that is what i'd like to see

I think Tris' main sticking point was the disconnect between choosing a Forum from the Dashboard (where you can't see the topics under the forum) and then jumping to the Topics (where you see all the posts in a conversation).

The entire element of a "Discussion" doesn't exist in Tangler.

One solution that wouldn't require much reconfiguration is to provide an Ajax-y popup on the Dashboard so that:

When you hover over a Forum icon, it shows you the list of the topics iin that forum. This way, you can have a high level view of the Forums available and quickly ascertain which topics are under it, and then choose directly the Topic of your choice to go and read the Conversation/Posts within.

I think part of the hang up for me was having to 'Enter' the Forum to see what conversations were under it. Unless you know exactly what you want to see it can feel like a hassle to enter and back out of the 'Topic' page.

That said, there are a number of other features which have to be taken into account in order to get a whole picture of why Tangler is so bloody cool. One is the way all of the topics you have been participating in are viewable and the desktop widget that can alert you to recent updates.

Another element here is the original focus of Tangler, to be a collection of Forums with a cool UI that allows a lot of people to have their own open conversations under the Tangler tent. This promotes interaction in a way that the web is just now discovering. We have been used to private forums on individual domains that people joined, but had to join a bunch of different ones. This progressed to mambo and Drupal (for instance) affiliated sites with a single log-in. Tangler took a sort-of opposite approach. maybe Particls can be the glue unifying the legacy communities we are already part of and Tangler coolness?

I'd love to see Particls incorporated somehow that would produce a really nice experience.

I also posted privately to suggest that the titles of things like Topic and Category be made editable  (on forum creation) with color coding to turn this into a project management/decision support/community voting tool that would move it from fun lightweight social, to fun medium weight but very robust organizational tool. Not just for companies, but for civic organizations and spontaneous social groups who want to achieve something together. I know the non-profit community would really benefit from these features.

Om

That hovering topic list sounds great! By adding expandable categories ion the "popups" you could easily browse trough a bunch of topics without being "flooded". (Yes, I like categorizing. And tags. A lot of tags. Please, add tags. I like tagging.)

And those extended customization possibilities seems cool and useful.

Thanks webguy. You hit the nail on the head with your description of Tangler as it is now.

I think a forum as an organisational tool is an interesting concept.

Dekrazee1.. please feel free to include any portion of what I sent you that seems relevant...

In the above illustration,Topics, Projects and Decisions are all the exact same thing, used in the exact same way. All functions 'below' the topic level are also identical in function but have differing purposes due to their different labels.

In this example the following arbitrary colors and labels would have been defined by the forum creator:

Blue - Top level  indicating the type of section it is (here it is a project and below that a decision)    Orange - is a list of the projects in section 1 and a list of groups involved in the decision process in section 2.  Green - is the tasks to achieve each project

and in section 2 a Green border represents a more granular level of decision actors. In this hypothetical in section 2, marketing has decided to not approve the 'budget' and red flags it. The Supervisors group member would make a note concerning progress and coded this assessment with a red flag as well, thereby marking the top level 'blocked'. Now an 'executive' or any interested party could see that something needs to be solved without keeping a full time microscopic perspective on progress. A dashboard full of these things could give you a lot of information simply and quickly about a lot of stuff. Needless to say decision stuff would benefit from Digg style +-/up down indicators and things could get out of hand quickly. There is nothing making this 'enterprise' I just used that to get the idea across. My background is in teeny non-profit environmental orgs trying to survive in this crazy world.

Ah yes, I can now see how it's just a 'hierarchy system'. I got a bit confused before.

Thanks!

"<webguy> One is the way all of the topics you have been participating in are viewable"

Um, where?  I have been asking for this aggregated topic list for ages.

I read that as being about how any topic you post in is starred and will appear in "Recent Activity"

+1 for an aggregated Unread Topics list though.

That's available on your Dashboard. (Or am I misunderstanding the subject at hand?)

Well, I was thinking more of a way to jump between all my unread topics without having to load up each group in turn - just a combined list down the left hand side like the ordinary topic list.

Also the Dashboard list doesn't adapt to what's starred or unstarred, so for me it's always full of topics from the Tangler-Games group.

ooh, another difference is that the Dashboard list is of topics you've participated in, whereas Recent Activity is anything from a group you've subscribed to.

Yeah... The Dashboard gives you a list of all the topics you've participated in with new messages.

The watchlist is primarily for tweaking your Recent Activity and Notifier alerts