I figured I'd start a topic on Torchwood, as a follow-up to some of the comments made in the Waiting thread.  I've got a lot of thoughts on this that I've been mulling over in my mind and I thought it worth a whole new topic.  I'm going to post this first as a placeholder while I write the long monologue I've been planning!

I want to point out that I do really enjoy Torchwood and plan to watch the next season vividly.  However, I still agree that the series has lots of faults.

Okay, so I want to address some of the issues that were mentioned in the "Waiting" post.  Firstly, audience.

While I agree that the general audience is "Doctor Who" fans I think that Torchwood is specifically targetted at a subset of those fans (and also people beyond those fans) and I think this is part of the problem - just part of the problem mind you.  The one subset of the Doctor Who fans is the older fans - while this isn't inheritantly a problem I think the way they've gone about it is - but I'll explain my thoughts on this later.

The other subset are the "Welsh" fans.  Doctor Who, while being filmed in Wales (with lots of recognisable landscapes to those of us who live in Wales), it's based across time and space.  Torchwood is based in Wales - a country I love but let's face it, not the most exciting country in the world, and Cardiff isn't exactly the best city either.  So why base it there?  Okay, so they're filming it in Wales so it makes sense to make it take place in Wales but it's not going to really sell the programme beyond our borders (that's what Barrowman is for).  By basing the series in Wales they are appealing to an audience of Welsh citizens who may or may not be Doctor Who fans.  This explains why I, and many of my colleagues, love it despite the show's obvious flaws.  I doubt I'd be such an avid watcher if it weren't based in Wales.  Also, add onto this the fact that by very much basing it in Wales it's promoting Welsh tourism.  The aspects of the show which appeal to this audience cause it's downfall for other audiences.

This brings me quite neatly to the other big problem.  Taking a series that is based across time and space and then putting a spinoff in a single town at a specific time.  This, I think, is in part to appeal to the wider non-Doctor Who fan audience.  The problem is that the series doesn't translate well to this medium and the writers haven't come up with particularly good storylines that compliment the different structure.  So they're trying to put Doctor Who based plots in a very different series.  DS9 managed (in my opinion) to pull this shift of focus off - but then DS9 took place somewhere much more exciting than Wales.

Now back to the change to an older audience.  The problem is that they've done this in two ways.  Firstly they've decided that none of the characters are going to be perfect.  Captain Jack doesn't hesitate to kill, whatsherface (the annoying female lead) isn't the nicest girlfriend on Earth, and the rest of the characters all have their flaws.  Flaws are one thing but these are far too glaringly obvious and make the characters annoying.  The second way they've done it is by making the whole "sex" thing more obvious.  Back to comparisons with other series', Angel worked as a more adult version of Buffy because it was much darker.  While Torchwood tries to be darker in places, it's main drive is the sex.  I can barely think of an episode where sex wasn't pretty damn prominent.  This is a sci-fi series, not a soap opera.  If I wanted to watch a Welsh soap opera I'd be watching Pobl y Cwm or something like that (although now I'm making assumptions about other TV programmes).

There have been one or two excellent episodes, and perhaps three or four very good episodes (these are numbers picked from thin air, it's been a long time since I watched the first season as I watched it when it first aired in the UK), but the rest of fairly mediocre.  That said, there have also been quite a lot of average Doctor Who episodes, particularly this last season - but the good Doctor Who episodes are so much better.

So that's my initial thoughts on why Torchwood doesn't work despite having the same production company as Doctor Who.  They are trying to do something "different" but they just aren't the right people to do it.  They either need to make it more like Doctor Who or find someone who can write something completely different.

@Draigwen:

"Cardiff isn't exactly the best city either.  So why base it there?  Okay, so they're filming it in Wales so it makes sense to make it take place in Wales but it's not going to really sell the programme beyond our borders (that's what Barrowman is for).  By basing the series in Wales they are appealing to an audience of Welsh citizens who may or may not be Doctor Who fans"

Cardiff has some useable "futuristic" architecture. And the production team is that of BBC Wales. (who also make the current Dr Who)

That is why.

It has precious little to do with anything else to do with  Wales; it's just close to home for the producers. And keeps it cheap. It's not there to appeal to the Welsh, (please don't flatter yourselves) but to Dr Who fans, who as usual will buy into any old load of bull-crap, so long as the characters are believable. But this lot aren't . I'm sorry they are not.

At least The Doctor gets to travel in his TARDIS to other TV sets - other planets, London, New York etc...past and present. I personally would not want to be saving the universe from effin'  Cardiff, all the bloody time. As is the case in Torchwood. It has limited itself from the outset by saying Cardiff is some centrally important place in the universe. "Why not?" You might ask, but we are making TV entertainment here, not "Postcards from the Edge"

What is the argument: That there is a certain tear in the STC at just that point, and all the other Torchwood facilities are now destroyed or "missing"  Please give me  a break. I will happily suspend disbelief for TV shows, but..........

........for them to go camping one episode??? It was more fun in an early episode when they went out and got bladdered.

Cardiff has some useable "futuristic" architecture. And the production team is that of BBC Wales. (who also make the current Dr Who)

Sure, but that doesn't mean it had to take place in Cardiff.  Much of Doctor Who is filmed in Cardiff but it doesn't take place there.  They could have based it anywhere but still filmed it somewhere convenient.  While you are right that they film it in Cardiff for cheapness and convenience the reason for setting it in Cardiff could be much deeper.

It's not there to appeal to the Welsh, (please don't flatter yourselves)

I'm not actually Welsh, so it's not flattering myself.  But I still maintain that at least part of it is designed to appeal to the Welsh/those who live in Wales.  It's not stuff that I can place a finger on, but there's stuff there that is more appealing to those who recognise the culture and the place (as is the case with any show set in any locale).  It's also popular here among those who aren't necessarily Doctor Who fans.  Maybe that appeal isn't intentional (who knows, I'm not deeply involved in the show) but it's there, and it will make a difference to the appeal outside of Wales.

Your point about the characters being believable goes back to my Welsh point (they are Welsh caracatures in many cases), and the point about the sex - the sex thing helps to make them unbelievable.

And yes, your point about Cardiff is exactly what I was trying to make - by basing it in one place, any place, is limiting.  By basing it in Cardiff is sub-optimal and limiting.

"Sure, but that doesn't mean it had to take place in Cardiff.  Much of Doctor Who is filmed in Cardiff but it doesn't take place there.  They could have based it anywhere but still filmed it somewhere convenient.  While you are right that they film it in Cardiff for cheapness and convenience the reason for setting it in Cardiff could be much deeper."

My god you mean!?...Oh no don't say it...Is it really a special place.

It's not there to appeal to the Welsh, (please don't flatter yourselves)

I meant the Welsh in general, not you! But I can't see how a show designed to follow Dr Who into the international markets (set in any place that the BBC sets would allow them) could possibly do so from Cardiff. Unless they were hoping to trade on Shirley Bassey and  Tom Jones.....

If Torchwood is to be based in the local Welsh countryside the local Cardiff pubs The local Pizza take-out, and an underground "Bat-Cave" that looks like, in part, a London  Tube Station, then God help them. But I said I am not surprised that Channel Ten In Australia shunted it to the graveyard of midnight Tuesday.

I think we're arguing around the same point here.  I completely agree that Cardiff isn't the right place to set the show if it's destined for an international market.  Which is why I wonder about a possible tourism agenda or maybe even a political agenda.  And which is why I wonder if they set it in Cardiff more to appeal to the locals than the international market, because anyone with half a brain would realise that Cardiff isn't a good setting if they want to follow Doctor Who's success.

So yes, I think we're on the same wavelength, that the setting is one of the reasons why it's not a good show, despite being from the crew of Doctor Who.  We're just quibbling over the agenda for the terrible decision!

Maybe we are arguing round the same point. But I doubt it.

It's got precious little to do with Cardiff. Or politics. Or tourism.

There is no agenda here, other than a make a TV show that will sell  agenda.

Is that what TV entertainment is to you? An unseen agenda. That we are all being manipulated?

Does  Dr Who sell itself on the fact you should visit any one of many alternate futures or worlds? Perhaps you believe we should save up or votes for a New Earth Government

The setting isn't the problem.

Setting a show anywhere is never the problem. Pick an internationally successful British show that is not set somewhere comparatively dull? EastEnders? Coronation Street? BallyKisangel? Heartbeat? Goodnight Sweetheart?   and the list goes on, and on and I have picked some interesting ones, all made in comparative cheapness, in terms of setting.

There is no politics or tourism here. It's BBC Wales making a show on the cheap on the back of Dr Who and setting it in WALES where THEY ARE!!

The show is the problem.

In regards to Cardiff I'm hazarding a guess that it's the same reason that Spiderman was set in New York.  Stan Lee was a New yorker and he knew the streets and the places to go.  He wanted to have a comic based in a real place but with amazing characters.  Torchwood is set in Cardiff as it's a real place and one that (some of) the writers know, and it's cheap.  One of the major stumbling blocks to having the new generation of Doctor Who being filmed was the cost of the sets, which was also the stumbling block for the original Red Dwarf (which you'll note that for S9 they based it predominantly on Earth rather than rebuilding intracate sets.)

I would not call setting this on Earth as a problem though.  It is a different show to DW, and they don't have a TARDIS to jump into.  Buffy didn't have a TARDIS either.  In fact with the exception of half a dozen scenes over a 7 series history, Buffy was set in one town.  I don't think it would have been improved if she had space travel.  Thinking back to Tom Baker DW (Yes, I am old) a large amount of his adventures were on Earth, and related back to UNIT.  This did not mean that the adventures were any less enjoyable.  In fact, this actually made them a lot more accessible.

Torchwood aims at a different audience to DW.  Although they were hoping to have a ready made audience in the subset of DW fans, DW can be called "family drama."  By thrusting a reanimated corpse in scene one of Torchwood they have separated themselves from the "family drama" arena and thrust themselves firmly into the "Sci-fi" genre.

As to the characters, Captain Jack is fantastic, and the more screentime he has the more the character develops. Owen was a pain in the bum, and we're better off without him, as his character gives very little catalyst for the exploration of others.  Gwen on the other hand is almost only catalyst and not much beyond - I watch this and wish that she was a more believeble cop.  Ianto on the other hand I adore. I think the cybergirlfriend was a mistake for his character, but after that his role has become a much more roundly fleshed out one.

Part of the problem on character is that we're watching a show that has multiple writers, but the writers tend to write remotely from each other, so that writer a doesn't know what ongoing plot lines writer b wants to put in place.  This can only be done if there is one creatove head who goes over the work of the writers with a fine tooth comb.  RTD did this with DW, but it would be difficult to expect him to do this for both shows with the same attention to detail.  (Again, why "Buffy" is far superior to "Angel")

Tourism?  Let me put it another way - who wants to visit Ramsay street?