As people get familiar with the map editor, I think it would be useful to promote development ideas by setting up some periodic mapmaking awards.  I want to hear from members of the community if you share interest would be in this and, if so, when you think the first contest should be... month from now?  sooner?  later?

Hi, I think a map contest especially with awards is a good idea. I suggest to start as soon as possible since there already a lot of maps around, would could be entered for the contest.

We should have at least three categories and some general rules around submission process.

Great idea! I am up for it.

How will they be judged?  You need a set of objective criteria plus some play experience on the map.

I think this is really exciting! If you come up with a good mechanism to do such a thing we'd be very happy to contribute. E.g. to add the winner to the default list for at least a month (if not ever) and to also throw in a pro account for a month or so. It is early stages but this sounds like great fun!

Aaaahhh, the chance to have your map become a default one ... NOW this gets interesting ...

There are a lot of category combinations that could be exploited for contests. Just off the top of my head: Different number of players, symmetrical, asymmetrical, pro account, standard account, only land forces, only water, theme related, size restrictions, etc. There's close to a limitless combination of "rules" you could apply to a particular contest. Could be fun and result in some interesting creativity.

1. lets start off with 3 categories

2. Create some general rules for each category

3. Judging can be done via ratings by the public. I was thinking I could setup something like Gallery or some other open source photo gallery system that comes with ratings. Users can upload their maps by taking a screenshot of it.

We can put the map contest on the Wiki - I'll see if I can find an easy way for votes to be tallied

madmike - let me know if you have a solution as well

What about maps that aren't published? or maps that are modified by someone else but the original creator did most of it and they only say, added a few bases?

Oh well, I guess there's no interest...

When I was coming up with the idea, I had a few basic ideas how it would play out:

- This would be judged by a panel, not by a community vote.  The Panel would, ideally, consist of the most experienced players, since the winner ought to be determined by an informed vote.  How big of a panel is the question, it could any number, like 5 people or 25.

- I would prefer to have awards mostly focusing on maps that provide good gameplay experiences.

- There should be one (and only one) category that even considers aesthetic design.  I was thinking of calling it the ABC Award, for Asthetics, Balance, and Challenge.  In simple terms, it would be for the best example of a map that is pretty and manages to also provide a neat gameplay experience

- Other awards:  Best 1v1 Small, Best 1v1 Medium-Big, Best Multi.  Between these and the ABC award, that will (hopefully) encourage map development in all areas of gameplay while giving everyone who likes to design maps a chance to play to the category that plays to their strengths.

- Oh, and one more award (just to round it out to five) I think would really be good is one for "Most Creative Gameplay Idea."  This would be for a map that thinks outside the box and really adds a new idea as to how the game is played.

That's a great Idea. How about most flashy? or dubious honors like best unbalanced map, which matches all criterias, except for balance.

I like "out of the box award", also think symmetry should be addressed (necessary or not?) And there is need for the best small map and the best gigantic map. Every user can only submit ONE map (at least per cathegory) and is NOT allowed to alter it afterwards. Who judges what is none of my concern, but using the wiki is a bit risky. Can we have a section there that only admins can change or something...

I was thinking of using Gallery so people could submit screenshots or png file of the map. this would be easier to help people quickly see maps not yet published., etc... You could also set up albums to represent the different Categories. Plus, with Gallery you can restrict how many times a person votes via registration to the site.

I also like "limiting the number of submissions" idea from Streen.

bad idea for doing it on the wiki.

The wiki can have Polls, those can be used for Voting

I've set up a Gallery on the wiki, so people can upload to that - and then we could vote at the end of a couple weeks, perhaps? Here's a link to the Wiki page, which links to the Gallery: http://weewarwiki.com/tiki-index.php?page=Map+contest

Tell me what you think.

P.S. - Edit the Wiki page however you want to handle rules as you've been discussing them. Up to you if you want to use this, just thought I'd try and make it easy

Ok, here's my thoughts - the Gallery (not the same one Madmike mentioned, but still a good one) is up now, and we could have people submit to it at their will. I think I've set it up to require registration before uploading. 
Whoever has award categories, put the ideas here, I'm sure we can agree on a limited number of them fairly easily. I don't see why we should limit the number of submissions, just limit the time during which they can be put up. 

A panel of "expert" judges sounds great, but it would require A] a given definition of "expert," and B] a way to restrict voting to the appointed judges.

Since the Weewar community will be playing the maps, why not let the community vote? If Alex decided to bless this contest, the voting could be pretty well represented among players - and by requiring registration to vote (which the Wiki does allow), we can keep it fair.

The main question, then, is what does winning mean? Easiest is to put up a page on the Wiki with the winners - nice, gets more plays, ok. Next best would be for Alex to decide to put one or more of the winners into Weewar as "official" maps - even cooler. Best of all, I think - might be to give the winners not just a place on the official Weewar site, but some kind of recognition, in points, on the blog, with a special badge, whatever ideas you all can come up with.

Ok there it is - thoughts?

I'm an expert.

- Okay, after looking at things I think it would be fair to call an "experienced" player one who has won 50 or more games and has been playing longer than 1 month from now.  I think that is pretty fair.

Anyone who wants to be on the panel, let me know.  I still don't completely have an idea in the interest, so if the panel gets too large to make efficient voting, they can always be split up into groups to judge each award.

+1 to streen for calling it the "Out of the Box" Award.

I have a couple ideas for handling the voting in a fair manner, and I don't see any reason for it not to be public.

I think that map submissions could be handled by having the mapmaker publish them, declaring them for submission, and then having one of the judges "copy" it to their account so it can't be changed.

Not sure why we need to make the contest overly complicated by having panels of expert judges, etc., all that seems to do is make some people feel like big man on campus for being on the panel. Better to just open up submissions and voting to the whole community, and let the official Weewar folks decide what to do with the winners.

Why someone who has won 50 games? Why not someoen who has played 50 games?  Does winning give you more experience?  Some of the top players haven't even won 50 games.

Let's focus on the categories first and rules for submission. Here is a list of what I've seen from scanning through the previous posts.

1. ABC(Asthetics, Balance, and Challenge) Award
2. 1vs1 Award
3. Multiplayer Award
4. Pro Unit Award
5. Basic Unit Award
6. Out of the Box Award

We will need to get basic definitions of what qualifies a map for each category.

Ideas for Submission Rules

• One map per category per person or  a  Maximum three map submission???
• Maps must be created by you. Updated maps created by others users  will not be accepted.

How about a theme map award? it needs to stay on the theme and kinda keep with the A-B-C's

madmike - I second those categories - and I'd like to suggest one other, since it seems to be a popular theme - Real World Maps.

Edit, since I've seen Wiiman's suggestion - "Real World" and "Theme" are closely related, perhaps sticking with "Theme" and including real world-inspired maps in that category is best.

Bonchon, my reasoning for having panel judges is that, in my opinion, it would be valuable to have a contest where the maps are judged based upon an informed AND experienced opinion from players who have demonstrated passion for the game.  I don't think it needs to be argued that having map evaluations and opinions generated by people who understand the game well will be valuable.  I don't really understand how you can read ego into this.  In the real world, informed panel judges in contests are generally the rule.  Would you have the Nobel prizes be awarded by general population vote?  Is it a good idea if David Beckham is awarded the Science Prize?  Should football games be refereed by audience opinion?  Talk about a home court advantage...

That being said, I really have nothing against a "viewers choice awards" version of the contest.  I propose that, if the community desires, that there should be two contests.  However, I still think it would be great value to the community to have a panel contest.  Bonchon, if you personally feel that it is a BMOC contest, than you don't have to participate.

I would ask that if a second contest than the one I would like to hold is desired, that a seperate thread be created for that so as to cut down on the confusion and argument.

I have updated the name of the thread.  Please try to be civil and take off-topic discussions elsewhere

In previous Map Making Contests I've participated in, a select group( veteran players, weewar devs, etc...) of panel judges would narrow the submissions down to 5-10 for each category. Then the public with vote on the final maps. Maybe this is how we should do it.

@ bonchon: I believe "Out of the box" could be used for theme. Plus, the word theme is to vague.

That would be an interesting idea to try, except my concern would be the volume of time that would take.  First you would have to get all the submissions in, then every one would have to be played by all the judges to find the nominees, then (to be fair) all voters would have to be on the honour system to play every nominated map.... very long, very complicated.

I would consider this to be something for, say, an annual contest.  For example, we could hold a normal contest every 3 months based upon a panel, which would be simple, fast, and efficient.  Then after 4 of these contests there could be an annual popularity vote where the nominees are all the previous panel winners

I think the Panel system could actually be very efficient.  The panel members would all work together to narrow the maps down to, say, two or three or four of the best.  Then there would be a vote based upon which of those are the best.  Second place maybe gets on an Honourable Mention list.

"Theme" as themed off anything, A map of A novel, A Themed city map, A map based of a video game. So you could have a theme of anything, such as (Europe, World, North America, Car, Historic, *cough* Made up places too or even the moon?)

wiiman, just to reiterate, the philosophy of the contest I had in mind is to acknowledge and reward maps that have gameplay value.  Maps that look neat are already appreciated as soon as they are seen by the players, thus the need to acknowledge those accomplishments are not as great since they are already acknowledged.

Make a map that looks beautiful, or has an awesome theme, AND has very interesting gameplay?  Now that deserves special acknowledgment, as it is extremely difficult to make a map which combines those two qualities.  I suspect that the ABC category may turn out to be the most difficult on.

Yea that's what I said. Well maybe I did miss the interisting part but  mostly it would be good to factor that in as another thing.

I probably was not clear.

1. Select panel narrows down submissions to top X. Where X can be some arbitrary number.

2. Public votes for one map of each category via poll system or some other mechanism.

I do not think the panel needs to play every map, you can easily look at a map see that it does not meet the requirements. Maybe one way to reduce the volume would be to the following.

1. Reduce the categories to 3 instead of 5, or do only one-two categories this month. Then choose a different category next month.

2. Reduce submission to only Max 3 and not one per category.

I like where this is headed. I third the six suggested categories. I think there should be a limit to the number of maps per category per person. Three, maybe four, seems fine. Three of four overall, rather than for each category, is probably fine too. Too many would make the contest take a long time to judge, especially if the panel plans on testing each of the maps. I agree that some maps are pretty obvious in lacking balance and need not be tested, but other maps, particularly larger ones, should probably be tested to check small balance issues that aren't really visible when there are so many possible moves.

I have a map nearly ready to submit too. Now just to tweak it for better balance and then figure out which category it best fits / would do best in...

How about a maximum submissions of a certain amount the pannel can handle then the community can suggest a small amount more, say 15% of the total submissions, as in where the final judging amount. so at least 1 out of say, 15 will be submission. If this doesn't make sence then here is the steps.

1. People submit # of stuff

2. Once # is fufilled the community will suggest their favorites. Those will be a % of the finalist (So as it makes it easier for the pannel)

3. The panel doesn't have to play every map as MadMike said. they look over them and choose another % of the finalist.

4. The top # maps go through final/Semifinal? judging which will be a thorough judging. (If there is a case of semifinal judging then the community would also do a % of the work)

5. In a case of semifinals then repeat the process, but in the case of a finals the maps are then marked on an ascetics/Balance/Challenge Marker (I would say a 20 pnt , 50 pnt, or 100 pnt scale, with % of the points per panel member. the top overall, and in each category is then decided.

I like most ideas here, dont care to much about the categories, you guys figure this out. I think a panel is a valid idea ans it seems to have been accepted. With experience, as in having plaid 100 games and playing weewar for several months, comes the ability to be able to judge maps, to figure out balance issues on the first look and to estimate how fluent gameplay is gonna be. Occasionally there comes a noob that can do all that, but experience guarantees this.
I stick with my idea to limit map submissions to one per category, otherwise we get swamped by a few mapbuilders that have great skill maybe, but I prefer having more different people in there.

I agree that there should be a peer reviewed process for submissions, where 2or 3 panel members look at a map, decide on the relevance to the category, balance and all that and then decide if its gonna be allowed to enter the contest. This is the same process which is done for scientific conferences when submitting papers. In fact, if you choose to do that as well, the reviewers could even suggest changes and allow a resubmission if the map has potential but doesnt quite qualify, but hey, its a competition, so probably not.

As for storing the maps, how about creating a new weewar user and put them all into his mapslist, name the player by cathegory and date. That avoids any plagarism

I also like the idea of doing this monthly, with occasionally some more obscure cathegories a few months down the line, like real world maps or so...

BTW: may I say that this thing is getting quite big. Slept for 8 hours, come back and it takes me an hour to catch up.

Also, I would really like to be involved in this, be a panel member maybe?

Hi, i would also like to be a panel member. I think the categories are good, but maybe we can add something like replayability / variety, so that there might be a lot of difference in this map.

About the experienced players: I think there are a lot of players who play most of their games for draw. Then base the experienced player only on the winnings is imo not that far. I suggest we also consider the draw games.

Yep, total games plaid I say. You learn a lot while loosing too. Those lessons are usually the ones you remember best

Agree with jeye and streen on Greater then or more then X amount of games. Like streen said 100 games works for me.  I still believe for the first phase we should keep the categories down so we can work out the kinks in the process.

"add something like replayability / variety" - I do not think this should be a category but part of the criteria that qualifies a map for particular award category, like multiplayer award.

Sounds like panel members has a pretty universal thumbs-up. Would panel members be allowed to submit maps of their own, or would any involvement at that level be unfair? If panel members can also submit, I'd like to be a panel member. If not, I think I'd have more fun making maps to enter in the contest.

To toss another idea out there, instead of having a big multi-category context what about some kind of weekly contest for a single category that changes every week? Might keep interest alive, allow new users to jump in, and allow everyone time to be able to enter a horse into every race.

Weekly is too short for judging. I prefer we do monthly with 2 categories each month, or we do a 5 category one every quarter.

Panel members should not be allowed to screen their map for a category they have submitted in. So if you map one for Out the box you can not screen, but you can still screen for the other categories.

weekly is to short, monthly is almost to long, but acceptable (especially if judges are in doubt and a map has to be playtested) Quaterly? naahh...

Could we not just introduce that you cant vote for your own map? That should be fair. In fact, you reduce your chances by being on the panel.