Hi everybody

The testserver is up again. The Accounts/Maps created for the last test are still valid. You might even find the old games. We have made the following changes to the stats of the last testserver-version:

AntiAir: Attackrange reduced to 1 vs all but Aircraft

Helicopter: Movement 5-1 (5)

Destroyer: Attackrange 2(1) vs Subs, -2 vs Boat, +2 vs Air

Speedboat: 200(250) Credits, -2 vs Hovercraft

Battleship: 14(16) Boat

Light Artillery: Boat 4(8), Speedboat 4(8), Amphibic 4(8)

Bomber: 14(16) Boat,  900(800) Credits

Apart of that there is now an "altitude" to each unit type. Units are only blocked by enemy units if they are on the same altitude or issue ZoC over the moving units. Examples: Planes can fly over Tanks, Subs can pass underneath Hovercrafts etc. The One-unit-per-field-rule still applies. Furthermore capturing is now undoable.

The overall stat changes between the live system and the current version of the test server follow below:

Airdefence

Credits: 300 (400)

Defence: 4(6)

Hard: 3(0)

Boat: 3(0)

Trooper: 8(0)

Air: 8(13)

Speedboat: 3(0)

Hovercraft: 3(0)

Max-Attack-Range: 2(3) - 1 vs all other

Assault Artillery

Air: 6(8)

Battleship

Defence: 14(16)

Max-Attack-Range: 4(5)

Hard: 14(16)

Boat: 14(16)

Soft: 10(12)

Air: 6(12)

Speedboat: 14(16)

Amphibic: 14(16)

Repairs : 1

Bomber

Credits: 900(1200)

Boat: 14

Destroyer:

Credits: 900(1100)

Air: 12(8)

Range: 2(1) vs Subs

Boat: 10(12)

Jet

Hard: 8(6)

Heavy Trooper

Air: 6(8)

Helicopter

Movement: 5,1

Hard: 10(8)

Soft: 16(14)

Movement: 5+1

Hovercraft

Air: 0(6)

Speedboat: 8(10)

Light Artillery

Credits: 200(400)

Max-Range: 3

Hard: 4(8)

Soft: 10(8)

Boat 4(8)

Speedboat 4(8)

Amphibic 4(8)

Raider

Air: 0(4)

Speedboat

Credits: 200

Soft: 8(10)

Hovercraft: 16(14)

Berserker

Defence 14(16)

Sub

Credits 900(1200)

Max-Range: 2(1)

Speedboat: 8(0)

Hovercraft: 8(0)

Comments / Suggestions are as always very welcome.

oh baby, nice update... with altitude and capture undo too!

working on updated battle sim now....

Oh boy oh boy oh boy, this looks so juicy.   Thanks for making these changes, I'm gonna go playtest now.  This looks like a[nother] chunky step in the right direction!  Several of them, in fact!  *chunk**chunk*chunk*  Love the varying attack ranges by target type; love the altitude attribute.

The tweaks on the Light Artillery seem a bit drastic, but let's see how that plays out.

a question about the Jet stats:  there's nothing for trooper.. did that change?  also, the old air stat was 16 (not 8).. but you you're cutting it down to 6??

also, i'm not wild about taking away air attack capabilities from the raider and hovercraft.  even if it is poor, they should still have something

i like that subs can now attack speedboats and hovercraft (may have been in the last update, but i didn't really have time to check it out)

the cut in the light artillery attack on hard units seems a little drastic, especially considering that they were already almost useless against anything tanks and above.... but upping the stat vs. troopers is a nice bonus

and tipping the speedboat-hovercraft scale more towards speedboats is nice.  I would also like to see the same thing for the raider

... it would help if you could join games on the test server...

Hooray for update! Boo for not being able to join games

Pluto, nothing has changed for Jet except attack against Hard units. The reduction in Air attack is for the Heavy Trooper. Bert must have accidentally deleted a line between Jet info and Heavy Trooper info

I'm not sure the Battleship should have been made even weaker from the last patch. The Battleship was pretty useless in the last patch... AntiAir also seems pretty useless now that it's abilities are reduced further. This will have to be tested, but it was already pretty unhelpful against air units in the last patch, at least to me. Now it's pretty unhelpful against land units too.

oh, duh... that makes sense.  thanks!

Can someone explain the "uncapturing basses" thing?  I can't find any information on it.

Pluto: http://test.weewar.com/specifications says jets have 16 vs. air.

Po: They just mean to say that after capturing a base, you can Undo.

Speaking of undo: I notice that for double-move units, you cannot undo your initial move if you move twice. 

Yeah, that's always been kinda a pain for me too, but it usually doesn't matter that much to me.

Destroyers can no longer enter enemy harbors. Is this a bug or did you guys not tell us? I'm pretty sure in the live server that only battleships and subs are unable to enter enemy harbors.

Destroyers have attack range 2 against subs, not 1-2 as I was expecting. So subs can attack destroyers from an adjacent tile without receiving damage in return. Interesting.

@spadequack ... this is not intended. Destroyers are should be able to attack from both the adjacent and the second field. I will update this tomorrow.

@pluto Subs attacking Hovers and Speedboats? We have introduces this at some point to have a counter to speedboats blockings subs. Eventually we decided that this was heading the wrong direction and added the ability to "dive underneath" the speedboat. This is (hopefully) a better solution to the Speedboat-blocking-the-Sub-Problem. If Speedboats can still attack Subs this ability will also be removed.

There also seems to be a problem with the helicopter as it is not moving correctly yet. I'll look into that as well.

Well, I've played a few turns, and I must say, things are feeling much more pleasant.  I still would rather see destroyers depthcharging from range 1 only (not 2), and subs being unable to respond at range 1, but I think I can work with what you've given us.

Oh, and I think I'd like to see AA guns return to a range of 3, with full ZOC stopping power in that 3-hex range.  I've got some AA in a game, and they seem so ineffectual because I'm spending all my time rolling them around on the ground in a vain attempt at getting close to jets, whose pilots are merely laughing at them as they flit around like sparrows on a fine spring day, constantly out of reach.  This is not how I imagine AA... AA should make airspace very risky or at least tricky to maneouvre through.

I completely agree with Pistos. I've been game for every change except for the AA. I've always thought they were week to begin with. The movement range on most aircraft is too great to make the new AA worthwhile. At least before a person had to think a little before attacking with aircraft near AA. Now there is no question - do it, you won't get hurt.

I agree with the AA comments mostly. For their price, I think they are fine. About two, maybe three AAs can take down an air unit. But the problem is that often, at least in my experience, the air units outnumber AAs and then the AAs are screwed. It would be better to build air units to counter instead, if a player can build air units and has the credits. If the AA stays as it is, I suggest creating another land unit that is considerably stronger against air units (that is more expensive too).

Yep, I'm beginning to feel that one more jet is a better way to spend money than on 3 AAs.

Anyway, I wanted to say that the altitude thing has made a big difference -- I think I can actually enjoy playing again.  Thanks for the spec adjustments.  I think maybe even just one or two more updates would make it worthy to push to live.

Not to say, of course, that spec tweaking should ever stop. 

So how is the battleship in comparison now?  I'm worried that making it weaker while also making everything else around it stronger may have been too much.

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't build battleships any more because I find I don't have the economic speed required to make the expense worthwhile.  I have to build destroyers and subs sooner to counter the same from the enemy.  If I put a battleship out there, they are targets for the subs.  At 900 for sub and DD, but 2000 for BB, it's too expensive to buy.  What does everyone else think?

I agree - battleships only come out very rarely now, because of the cheap subs and how hard it is to counter subs and protect the battleship. They are only useful on occasion - like once you've gotten control of most of the water and are trying to invade inland. This is probably a decent enough purpose for the battleship.

One problem I'd like to bring up is that when there is water separating two players, the game boils down to a sub war. And once a player has sub supremacy, they can effectively protect their battleships and destroyers and conquer land. See http://test.weewar.com/game/253 AAs, jets, and destroyers do a good job holding off air attacks - so air units don't seem all that useful. There needs to be an air unit that can target subs, in my opinion. Helicopter?

Well playing around with it, I think with the new sub changes and improvements to all the other units, Battleships should remain very strong defensively, offensively, and retain their 5 space attack range.

As for subs, they almost seem too mobile now and very powerful.  They definitely need another unit balance check against them.  Perhaps a cost increase as well?  Sea wars definitely are all about subs now.  I think an increase in cost may be good.

I also like the idea of using the helicopter as an air unit against subs.  As a balance issue, we need another unit to combat the high mobility of the sub and the sub's domination of the seas.  Adding the helicopter to units able to significantly hurt a sub will increase the interplay of air/naval units (an original goal I believe from the first post about unit balancing).  If helicopters are added against subs, we'll most likely see more jets to combat them.

For the realism agrument, I have 3 brother-in-laws in the navy (I'm USMC).  Two of them fly EP3 and P3 which hunt down enemy subs so air units are actively deployed against subs today.  I know Aircraft carriers actively use helicopters against subs as well.  An air unit dropping a torpedeo in the immediate vicinty of a sub can be very effective.  Of course first they use sonar bouys and such but after location... goodbye sub.  Just a thought.

One thought could be to add helicopters against subs doing the same damage as a destroyer. Also add the ability for them to capture bases.  Should be a hugh new incentive to use helicopters.  Increase their cost to 800 and I think we might have a nice new addition to the strategic and tactic depth of weewar.

Redwarrior

Um... so speedboats can attack helicopters (or maybe any air unit) at a range of 2...

Redwarrior: I agree with pretty much everything.  Let's implement those ideas and see how it plays out.

Re: speedboats: I'm beginning to think I don't like the speedboat range increase to 2.  For 200 credits, they make for a rather handy little "mass annoyance" tool.  Raiders seem less useful now with their 1-only range.

Wait wait wait... since when did speedboats have a range of 2? Did I miss this somewhere? I thought it was a bug.

Whether bug or deliberate adjustment, it's there.  I was surprised to notice it one day.  It gives speedboats a significant advantage [to be able to strike from afar without retaliation].

Imo the range  of 1-2 for speedboats is not appropriate and it is a major balance issue. the speedboat is like an assault art on water with more damage against hovers and speedboats with less than half of its price. I think the speedboat range should be reduced to 1-1. (or the speedboat price should go up to about 400).

Also i think it is very hard to counter destroyers (at least if they can strike subs at close range) since they are quite cheap with 900 and the battleship is a lot weaker. I suggest to make the destroyer destroyer weaker against battleships. (for example reduce boat attack by another 2) (especially since the battleship is normally not able to attack the destroyer when it can't shoot back for first strike). Consider that the bomber and destroyer do equal damage against each other and the destroyer can shot at the bomber when the bomber is not in range. And the bomber can be countered by jets easily.

I think the battleships are quite weak now and as others already said rarely build. I suggest at least to improve the repair rate to 2 again.

i couldn't confirm a range of 2-2 of destroyers vs. subs. I tested it and i was also able to defend and attack on close range, so range 1-2

I agree - speedboats are quite powerful now - they can be spammed across the water and take out hover and air units, but they are nothing when you have destroyers and battleships around or protected DFAs skirting the coast. I agree with jeye - increase their cost, maybe not as much as 400, or bring their range back to 1-1.

I have not had any problems with destroyers, and jeye, I don't understand your point #2 - I'm pretty sure both units attack at the same time?

Battleships are quite weak, but maybe it is better this way - I only build them to stop capturing troopers/hovers and to counter destroyers given I have enough subs. Perhaps their cost needs to be lowered, their strength increased, or their range returned to 1-5.  But as I've said before, sea battles seem to come down to a sub war and nothing else - there needs to be a unit that can effectively counter subs. And I can confirm destroyers have a range of 1-2 against subs.

looks like the destroyer range issue was already fixed. I think the best solution for the speedboat is to set the range back to one. I don't think the speedboat should be range. Only if the defs want a range speedboats i suggested to put the price at about 400 because the speedboat is more effective then the assault art then which costs 450. a little less because the speedboat is a see unit and it is not so effective against destroyers or battleships, but fine against air units with a  range of 1-2 or land units close to the coast

I actually like the new destoryers and their role.  They have two roles to fill now and thus I think they should be cheap at 900 credits.  Now I do think BBs should be the natural anti-destroyers not to mention combined with bombers and subs.  A lot of enemies for one little unit to counter.  But make destoryers less effective against BBs while keeping them strong against air and subs.

I think BBs should remain at one repair to help limit them.  I rather not see them return to the days of dominating the seas and quickly return to action even once damaged.  I think they deserve a price reduction at this point.  They still perform such roles as preventing bases captures and sinking destoryers very well.  The 2k price tag is just no longer justified.  At the max, 1500 credits I think IMO.  They still seem to decimate anything dumb enough to get inrange of them but pay dearly for not being screened enough by their own destoryers and subs.

Also to note, I now actually like the new ranges for destoryers and battleships.  It keeps them from reaching so far inland and vulnerable to land based artillery.  A nice change.  If increasing damage of BBs, keep them from overpowering land base artillery too much.  The current balance on the test server is adequate.

Overall, naval battles seem to progress by seeing destoryers early game slowing being overcome with more and more subs.  Usually late game, it is all subs and lots of them.

Regardless, I'm still testing...

Redchaos

Yes, things are feeling very, very playable now.  Just some things left:

Reduce speedboat range back to 1;

Bring BB cost down perhaps.  After all, if a DD is 900, I'd rather get two DDs than one BB.  There's a sort of rock-paper-scissors going on: DD for subs, subs for BBs, BBs for DDs.  But DDs and subs are much cheaper than BBs.

Pfff, antiair is miserable... You may shoot 2 or 3 from an airplane, which means I need 4 of those things within range to kill one... If I attack it with infantery from a forest... it is hurted for 1 maybe and my infantry (one of 5 and 1 of 6) is gone... Seems like AA is harmless and invulnerable. Lol. Maybe you can just use them as an impenetrable line of defense?

Holy crap yes speedboats need something done.  Way too powerful at the current cost.  Finally got in a game where they were abused and I completely agree with Jeye now.  I'm thinking scratch them and return them back to before the test server or at least raise their cost to 400 credits.  They're crazy now.  With their range and cheap price, you can swarm an enemy and bring them down fairly easily with no losses.  Especially effective against planes.  Speedboats should at least lose their ability to hit planes.

Also, DFAs are like cannon fodder with the new altitude abilities of planes.   Very difficult to protect them in a land based game.  AA definitely need a boost and perhaps ZoC for planes.  I wouldn't mind seeing them do so little if they at least kept planes from entering the ZoC of 2 spaces or something.  Definitely need something.

Redchaos

Question, if jets can pass over infantry do to the new altitude parameters, why can't infantry pass under jets?

Not sure I like it that jets can so easily pass over any units though realistic.  It makes buying land based artillery nearly worthless.  Almost impossible to protect them.  Granted you can typically catch the suicidal jets who destoryed your DFA but you can do little to protect it without placing jets in front of your lines completely vulnerable.  It looks like to me land based AA need to be redesigned or address again.  There needs to be some type of protection available from aircraft for landbased artillery IMO.

Redwarrior

I dont play on the test server, BUT: jets can pass over infantry????  WTF??

That is a really, REALLY stupid idea! seriously, what the hell???

Streen: ?  Can you explain yourself?  It seems extremely sensible to me.  They done this as a concession in the mean time until they can program full multi-planar unit placement.  (More than one unit on the same hex, at different altitudes.)

Sarcasm?  I can't tell.

The only reason why I would agree are the reasons I mention above.  Very difficult to stop a unit that moves a total of 8 spaces from attacking your sensitive land based artillery.  AA need to either be significantly improved damage wise or stop aircraft in a two space ZoC.  Maybe do away with the seperate AA unit and make all artillery include an AA element to their attack?  This could bring up difficult decisions such as "Do I use my unit as artillery this turn and kill that land based unit or as AA and hit that aircraft?"

Sorry, just thinking a lot I guess...

Redwarrior

Thanks for all your Feedback! Excellent stuff. We are processing right now and will get back with another round to tweaks shortly (Watch out for a new thread).